Best way to Solve this Problem, bassline and orchestration

[tapper mike]

I'll supply more ideas as...I resolve this sound issue of not getting the right bass level in the mix.

[Lyrakill]

all very help ful

[tapper mike]

One does not have to have a permanently active bass part in a song. Sometimes you can draw more attention to a bass part by not playing every beat possible.

In the following example I skip ever other measure.
First measure is just an E note played as an cctave followed by skipping the second measure then in the third measue it's the root of the chord doubled again.

http://soundcloud.com/tappers-examples/skip

[tapper mike]

I've given up trying to get some decent compression btw.

[tapper mike]

Okay, I haven't seen any responses yet. Still I'll continue onward.

A pedal tone or pedal point or drone tone are all the same thing. It is a repeated note that plays regardless of the underlying harmony. While there are several songs that use this basic idea the one that comes to my mind the most is the open G note on guitar in the song Blackbird by Paul McCartney.



Generally when using a pedal point the tonic is most often the refering tone that repeats. However it is not the only method.
Lets review our chord progression in my examples
E-B-D-A
And the bassnote for the guitar is a chromatic walk down.
E-D#-D-C#
So we need a note that is as common to all the chords as humanly possible. It should relate most closely with our first two chords. B
EBEB D#BD#B DBDB C#BC#B
B is the 5th of E the root of B the 6th of D and the 2 or 9 of A
In the bass the B over an A major chord with a C# in the bass may seem...a tad sour but not to much. Which can be fine if you want a little "edge" to the last chord. You can always go back to A on the last measure as opposed to using the B and you'll still have three measures of a consistent pedal tone to operate with.

http://soundcloud.com/tappers-examples/pedal

[padillac]

A pedal tone or pedal point or drone tone are all the same thing. It is a repeated note that plays regardless of the underlying harmony

I think the drone provides a base tone upon which to harmonize.

[tapper mike]

A riff is a short grouping of notes that support the chord function and while they can contain all the chord notes as part of the phrasing they aren't simply arpeggios. A riff is an idea that is easily transposed. While instruments in the melodic range can and often do juxtaposition the same melodic riff over different chords this can be difficult if not impossible for the bass to do so in a credible fashion. Better to transpose the riff, or modify the riff to support the harmonic function in most cases then to simply hope it fits the changes.

Riffs are best used when there isn't a great deal of harmonic motion (chords changing every measure) and when dealing with bass riffs it's important that other musicians "back off" to give the bass enough space. Bass riffs are least effective when other instruments are too busy doing their own thing. A good riff is easily identifiable because it's short sweet and to the point. A good riff has a basic type A and type B variation. So in order to make it stick you need repetition and slight variation within the repetition.

[tapper mike]

A pedal tone or pedal point or drone tone are all the same thing. It is a repeated note that plays regardless of the underlying harmony

I think the drone provides a base tone upon which to harmonize.

The harmony is already established thru the chord progression. In the examples I state that the chord progression (harmony) is in place.

While yes if you started with a specific tone and repeated it (drone) you could then use it as a means to harmonize other notes to the drone. You can also apply the inverse. Meaning start with a basic chord progression and determine a suitable "common tone" point of reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_%28music%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_point

The query of the op is in regard to how to compose/arrange a bass part for an established chord progression.
Here I am demonstrating and explaining various to the same end.

You are more then welcome to supply your own examples and methodology as to how you would construct a bass part given the same parameters.

[diijay]

AWESOME MIKE, that's exactly what I was looking for.

I would like to hear some of those Techniques to applied to the song we are working for.

AMAZING WORK, THANKS!!!!

The cool thing about this song is not 100% diatonic to one key so to create a pedal tone, riffs, ostinatos that work on all chords is not that easy...

This the logic I used.

Guitars Intervals: D-A | C#-A | C-G | B-G

INTERVALS WITH BASS: G makes a tritone with C#, so it's not good to use as a pedal tone or ostinato. F# has the same problem with C.

I believe the better choice would be E and A:

E: 9 - 6 - 6m - 5
A: 4 - 3 - 3m - 2M(9)
D: 1 - 7 - 7m - 3
B: 3 - 2 - 2m - 1

If use E or A under the guitar, E would be better, because has only one dissonance, the consonance(6), then consonance then consonance.
The note A has dissonance 2M(9) going to another dissonance(4), what do you think?

This way is I can choose the more consonant notes to make an ostinato to play without changes to play together with the guitar, same is applied to a pedal tone or even a new bassline.

What you guys think about this method?

Between A and E, following the counterpoint rules, which one is more consonant with the guitar intervals?

[tapper mike]

You've got the right logic....
All you have to do is transpose what I'm doing down a full step.

Guitars Intervals: D-A | C#-A | C-G | B-G
If you fight the harmonic motion established in the chord progression it will seem likw you aren't fitting in. Your role as a bassist is to work with the progression supporting it rather then conflicting with it.

Tritones are for jazz not for pop/rock. And when using a Tritone everything supports it or gets out of the way. Tritones in jazz are only expressed when there is evidence of a dominant 7th chord with the 7th clearly expressed. Neither is this jazz nor is there a dominant 7th chord expressed in the harmony. It's way to intellectual for this type of environment.

As well you don't always have to strive for connivance a little bit of dissonance is not a bad thing. However you have to be careful on where you place the dissonance. Generally speaking when using a dissonant tone it's better when the dissonance resolves to consonance. As an example the intro progression to Stairway to Heaven which uses contrary motion and dissonance but resolves the dissonant tones to a connosant ending.

Although I personally would never use a fourth of a chord in the bass range unless the 5th was an expression of the chord in the melodic range.
In most of my examples I'm playing....jan will shoot me because it's not traditional modality, Modal playing to accommodate the chord progression. Although some might view it as supporting a modulation.

We'll work in your key to simplify things and so you can get a handle on it more easily.

Rock rarely uses ostinato in the bassline especially in this type of progression. And often uses a means by altering the structure to support the harmony.


Let's recap.
The heart of rock and roll is the beat. I can't enforce this concept enough.
As a bass player your bass playing is there to support....The {b]beat[/b] as well as other players. In some situations you can work with other players to highlight the bass. However in this situation the rest of the players (the rhythm guitar, and vocals are already established. Your job now is to support them with out stepping on what they are doing. If you try to get to sophisticated in your bass playing you are doing just that. Your stepping on them and the only way to stop that is either to change the arrangement to suit your performance or to try to work with them.

You can only work so far creatively before passing the point of no return where by your bass playing contradicts the already established parts.

Because the beat is the primary force you can use your own rhythmic variation in context of the song as a means of changing the dynamics. If you try to vary both your supporting rhythm and expand your for lack of a better term harmonic constructs it no longer becomes Rock and Roll.
Rock of this nature is K.I.S.S.
Keep it simple stupid. If it's too flashy then it detracts from the story.
The story or lyrical content is the focus of a rock song. People listen for the story not the intellectual accompaniment exercises. If the story is simple and straight forward then too the music must be to accompany it.

If you really think tritone subs will work try them but I think you'll find that it's not going to work in a rock context.


A completely valid work up is to simply play straight 8's to support the harmonic motion. straight 8's doesn't mean you can't have variance (omitting some notes or emphasizing others or introducing a few 16th notes into the figure.

[diijay]

Thanks Mike,

I totally understand what you are saying, but my main goal here is to learn what you could do, compose for that chord progression.

Independent of the style, think about a pop or jazz or eletronica/house remix.

Which notes, chords, lines would work well above and under the guitar chords?

Let's orchestrate something that works well.

Bass, Piano, Strings and a synth.

Thanks again.

[tapper mike]

Well there are plenty of ways (i've only scratched the surface) working within the harmonic and rhythmic structure. However there are limits to them especially using Colin hay'z version or the original. Limited in that much of the songs rhythmic pulse is already defined.

The progression is only moderately unique. I've heard it thousand if not millions of times in other songs. A progression can be stylistically unique. However much of what defines a style is....The Beat.

The beat is linked to the harmonic motion or lack there of and the beat is linked to time and tempo but it's not dogma associated with the quarter note. Remember when I posted about the differences of working alone with only yourself as opposed to playing with backing tracks and as opposed to playing/writing in a band situation. Well most the ground work is already laid in Colin Hay's rhythmic treatment of the song. His guitar work becomes the rhythmic and harmonic treatment of which one has to support rather then working against or coming up with a different treatment or "feel" for the piece. There is a limit to how far one can go with the harmonic and rhythmic treatment of a piece and still perform in context of the rhythm guitar and vocal melody... Once you go beyond that limit either by note choice or rhythmic variation your material is no longer plausible in the song. As a bass player supporting an established pattern your goal is to support it not undermine it.

[tapper mike]

I've got to run off and do a few things. But before I go.

Remember this is only a progression in the song not the entire song. It's not long enough a progression to sustain an AAA treatment. nor does it have an effective resolution do to it's short nature. If you tried to build one song based around this progression it would begin to get very very ingratiating. Quite frankly it's driving me nuts going over the same progression over and over again regardless of the treatments I apply to it.

That's where song form comes in. I wrote an article regarding song form for the wiki here have no idea what happened to the wiki let alone the article.

[diijay]

Hey Mike,

I totally understand, I am just wondering how you guys would compose something based on a short progression, because musica has a lot variables, with an example like it's easier to focus.

If you wish we could use the chorus part as well so we have a resolution and a key center.

Thanks.

[tapper mike]

In my opinion and I could be dead wrong about this because Dance music is not my forte. That progression has no place in dance music and no matter how you dressed it up or changed the instrumental elements it wouldn't work.


The I-V movement is a hard sell anywhere. D-A is a I-V C to G is a I-V in a different key. It's an irregular motion and not Key centric. The chromatic movement of the bassline in the chord progression is also irregular and doen't help to bind the progression to a key.

Usually in dance songs you've got
I-IV
IV-V-I
ii-iii-vi
I-bVII
I-iii-IV-V

Or a serious Vamp (staying on the chord for a long time before resolving it if at all)