Midi for guitar synthesizer input

[AdmiralQuality]

Impressive but he's playing it like a novelty. "Oh hey, check out me playing piano on the guitar." I guess it turns heads but it would be better if they stuck with the synthesizer element.

That's also my problem with 90% of the sounds in my GR-30. They're mostly organ, flutes, some kalimba type noises and the scarce synthesizer noise here and there. The preset synthesizer sounds it does have are fairly boring.

I've had extensive time with (but have not owned) all the early guitar synthesizer rigs from Roland. Everything from the GR-500 to the GR-700. They were great because they were limited to fairly synthy type noises and manipulating those noises was a lot more straight forward (a couple of knobs and sliders never hurt anyone). Coupled with some Taurus pedals I could get some pretty nice sounds going.

It would be great if someone built a nice modern and analog sounding box for a 13 pin guitar.

I agree. I've owned a couple of Roland guitar synth products and my actual biggest complaint was their crappy ROM sounds. Imagine what it could be if they actually put a decent synthesizer engine in there, not some sample based garbage (note: I'm a fan of other Roland ROMplers) , but actual synthesis... even if it were as mediocre as the modern GAIA engine... but something that's not based on their PCM stuff that's been their go-to since the 90s. And yeah, I've tried to use the MIDI out to control other instruments and then the Roland GR stuff really sucks.

I think you're confusing two different functions.

MIDI is MIDI, so if it can't control an external synth to your satisfaction, how do you expect it to control an internal synth? (And why would you expect a fully functional VA synth in a pedal, where it's going to be, at best, tedious to program?)

But a lot of these boxes also have an effect function that acts like a synth, and because they're 6 effects in parallel, working on 6 individual string outputs, they can do things regular effects can't. Don't confuses these two modes, the second one is audio only and never gets interpreted to MIDI note events.

Older analog guitar synths were more like this, that's why they only had a couple of knobs. Really they're just a wave shaper and an envelope following filter. There's no classic ADSR envelope as you'd expect in a synth, as they use the guitar string's amplitude envelope only.

But yeah, if you don't like the crappy ROMpler samples, don't use them. They're just thrown in there so Joe Guitarist who doesn't own any synths or samples has something to play with.

[zerocrossing]

Impressive but he's playing it like a novelty. "Oh hey, check out me playing piano on the guitar." I guess it turns heads but it would be better if they stuck with the synthesizer element.

That's also my problem with 90% of the sounds in my GR-30. They're mostly organ, flutes, some kalimba type noises and the scarce synthesizer noise here and there. The preset synthesizer sounds it does have are fairly boring.

I've had extensive time with (but have not owned) all the early guitar synthesizer rigs from Roland. Everything from the GR-500 to the GR-700. They were great because they were limited to fairly synthy type noises and manipulating those noises was a lot more straight forward (a couple of knobs and sliders never hurt anyone). Coupled with some Taurus pedals I could get some pretty nice sounds going.

It would be great if someone built a nice modern and analog sounding box for a 13 pin guitar.

I agree. I've owned a couple of Roland guitar synth products and my actual biggest complaint was their crappy ROM sounds. Imagine what it could be if they actually put a decent synthesizer engine in there, not some sample based garbage (note: I'm a fan of other Roland ROMplers) , but actual synthesis... even if it were as mediocre as the modern GAIA engine... but something that's not based on their PCM stuff that's been their go-to since the 90s. And yeah, I've tried to use the MIDI out to control other instruments and then the Roland GR stuff really sucks.

I think you're confusing two different functions.

MIDI is MIDI, so if it can't control an external synth to your satisfaction, how do you expect it to control an internal synth? (And why would you expect a fully functional VA synth in a pedal, where it's going to be, at best, tedious to program?)

But a lot of these boxes also have an effect function that acts like a synth, and because they're 6 effects in parallel, working on 6 individual string outputs, they can do things regular effects can't. Don't confuses these two modes, the second one is audio only and never gets interpreted to MIDI note events.

Older analog guitar synths were more like this, that's why they only had a couple of knobs. Really they're just a wave shaper and an envelope following filter. There's no classic ADSR envelope as you'd expect in a synth, as they use the guitar string's amplitude envelope only.

But yeah, if you don't like the crappy ROMpler samples, don't use them. They're just thrown in there so Joe Guitarist who doesn't own any synths or samples has something to play with.

No, I'm not really confusing functions. If you've tried one of the GR series it's pretty clear that the internal synth sounds work a lot better than controlling external synths via midi. Neither is perfect, but somehow what they're doing with the internal synth works better. The sounds are just lame

[realmarco]

the unit that is between your GK2 and you computer is really the one responsible for your problems .

a guitar is made to be in 6 different midi channels.

just imagine mapping your guitar notes to a keyboard, make a chord in one octave on the keyboard.

you're making chords with only the low-e string, which will sound-terrible

[AdmiralQuality]

Impressive but he's playing it like a novelty. "Oh hey, check out me playing piano on the guitar." I guess it turns heads but it would be better if they stuck with the synthesizer element.

That's also my problem with 90% of the sounds in my GR-30. They're mostly organ, flutes, some kalimba type noises and the scarce synthesizer noise here and there. The preset synthesizer sounds it does have are fairly boring.

I've had extensive time with (but have not owned) all the early guitar synthesizer rigs from Roland. Everything from the GR-500 to the GR-700. They were great because they were limited to fairly synthy type noises and manipulating those noises was a lot more straight forward (a couple of knobs and sliders never hurt anyone). Coupled with some Taurus pedals I could get some pretty nice sounds going.

It would be great if someone built a nice modern and analog sounding box for a 13 pin guitar.

I agree. I've owned a couple of Roland guitar synth products and my actual biggest complaint was their crappy ROM sounds. Imagine what it could be if they actually put a decent synthesizer engine in there, not some sample based garbage (note: I'm a fan of other Roland ROMplers) , but actual synthesis... even if it were as mediocre as the modern GAIA engine... but something that's not based on their PCM stuff that's been their go-to since the 90s. And yeah, I've tried to use the MIDI out to control other instruments and then the Roland GR stuff really sucks.

I think you're confusing two different functions.

MIDI is MIDI, so if it can't control an external synth to your satisfaction, how do you expect it to control an internal synth? (And why would you expect a fully functional VA synth in a pedal, where it's going to be, at best, tedious to program?)

But a lot of these boxes also have an effect function that acts like a synth, and because they're 6 effects in parallel, working on 6 individual string outputs, they can do things regular effects can't. Don't confuses these two modes, the second one is audio only and never gets interpreted to MIDI note events.

Older analog guitar synths were more like this, that's why they only had a couple of knobs. Really they're just a wave shaper and an envelope following filter. There's no classic ADSR envelope as you'd expect in a synth, as they use the guitar string's amplitude envelope only.

But yeah, if you don't like the crappy ROMpler samples, don't use them. They're just thrown in there so Joe Guitarist who doesn't own any synths or samples has something to play with.

No, I'm not really confusing functions. If you've tried one of the GR series it's pretty clear that the internal synth sounds work a lot better than controlling external synths via midi. Neither is perfect, but somehow what they're doing with the internal synth works better. The sounds are just lame

I've spent a few seconds with them and like I said, there's 2 modes. One is an anaylzer that produces MIDI output, and the other is 6 parallel effects (think like 6 monophonic guitar "synth" pedals).

Which exact box are we talking about? I'll show you what I mean in the manual. Because again, MIDI is MIDI, and unless you have latency problems downsteam, why would external synths have a harder time than built in ones?

[AdmiralQuality]

the unit that is between your GK2 and you computer is really the one responsible for your problems .

a guitar is made to be in 6 different midi channels.

just imagine mapping your guitar notes to a keyboard, make a chord in one octave on the keyboard.

you're making chords with only the low-e string, which will sound-terrible

What?

But yes, for best results MIDI guitar converters should be run on 6 channels. Which IIRC Roland calls MONO mode (sounds worse than the other mode, POLY. It's not, you just need to have 6 mono synths to handle it, or an instrument that is guitar-aware).

[novelistus]

Well, I may be totally wrong. But I thought this could be solved in a different way. I am still a relative MIDI newbie, so this may just be a pipe dream and I look forward to some feedback of others.

- I have a Godin ACS-SA and a GR-33. And of course most of the sounds in the 33 are, lets say, not really what I want. And playing external synths from the GR-33 midi output, has never worked to my full satisfaction.

- I understand you can not play MIDI files "to" the 33. But you can control the 33 and all details of the Synth via MIDI.

- so what I like to do is use Midi Designer on the iPad and make an interface to control the 33 via MIDI. I think it should be possible via MIDI to modify the current program and even save it, and switch around between programs via MIDI command and the integrated foot switches and expression pedal. And add external sounds to it too.

- of course some of the developers out there could "marry" one of their synths with the main guitar synth boxes (Rolands, AX,...). But of course the installed base is small, so I wouldn't bet that's gonna happen.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a Guitar-Diva

I just started going through the GR-33 manual midi section and reference and I hae worked a bit with Midi Designer and was blown away how easy that was (and it looks cool too .

I'll holler again in case I'm successful ...

If anybody has experience with external sound control of the 33 or 55 or VG99, I'd like to hear. Also any pointers to partially existing solutions or background information woul dbe great.

cheerio

Ernie

[AdmiralQuality]

- of course some of the developers out there could "marry" one of their synths with the main guitar synth boxes (Rolands, AX,...). But of course the installed base is small, so I wouldn't bet that's gonna happen.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a Guitar-Diva

Poly-Ana takes 6 channel MIDI guitar input. Just put it on any UNISON patch using POLYPHONY of 1 or 2. You can even run up to 12 MIDI channels into it, which one of our customers does with his MIDI-fied Chapman Stick. (Just make sure POLYPHONY is set to 1 so there's one voice available to each of the 12 channels. Regular MIDI guitar on 6 channels can use 1 or 2 voice POLYPHONY.)

The original version of ImpOSCar did this too (not sure offhand about version 2.x). And I'm sure there must be a few others.

But you can control ANY software synth from multi-channel guitar output. Just use 6 separate instances of it, and filter each one to just one channel (most hosts default their MIDI filtering for input to virtual instruments to ALL channels).

[Musical Gym]

Haven't read the whole thread. Just wanted to mention I never try to use FL for midi guitar anymore after years of using FL.

Reaper handles midi guitar great for my purposes.

FL seems to have an issue trying to get things dedicated to channel 1 unless that's been fixed.

Give Reaper a try.

[CapnLockheed]

Imagine what it could be if they actually put a decent synthesizer engine in there, not some sample based garbage

I TOTALLY agree. I use my GI-20 to drive my SH-32 and it would be cool if it was a single self contained unit.

Which exact box are we talking about? I'll show you what I mean in the manual. Because again, MIDI is MIDI, and unless you have latency problems downsteam, why would external synths have a harder time than built in ones?

Sorry I completely disagree with this statement. MIDI is NOT just MIDI in this case. I don't care what it says in the manual we're talking about real world experience here. With the exception of the GR-100, 300 & 500 which, as you pointed out are actually hexaphonic audio effects like the VG's and Boss GK processors, ALL the rest of the GR series exhibit this behavior. It's been confirmed by HUNDREDS of users on MANY forums. It's a FACT. Roland GR synths track their internal sounds better than external synths. I KNOW this is true as I've owned EVERY one of them except the 55...many of them for years. They ALL track their internal sounds better. That being said some of them...particularly the GR-50 and GR-1 track external sounds better than other models and NONE of them as well as a GI-10, GI-20 or any of the Axons.

For WHATEVER reason, in this case at least, MIDI is NOT always just MIDI.

I've spent a few seconds with them

Maybe that's the problem.

[AdmiralQuality]

Which exact box are we talking about? I'll show you what I mean in the manual. Because again, MIDI is MIDI, and unless you have latency problems downsteam, why would external synths have a harder time than built in ones?

Sorry I completely disagree with this statement. MIDI is NOT just MIDI in this case. I don't care what it says in the manual we're talking about real world experience here.

Wow, you're difficult. You don't care what it says in the manual. Won't even tell me which device we're talking about. And sorry, but what else would MIDI be, other than MIDI?

With the exception of the GR-100, 300 & 500 which, as you pointed out are actually hexaphonic audio effects like the VG's and Boss GK processors, ALL the rest of the GR series exhibit this behavior. It's been confirmed by HUNDREDS of users on MANY forums. It's a FACT. Roland GR synths track their internal sounds better than external synths. I KNOW this is true as I've owned EVERY one of them except the 55...many of them for years. They ALL track their internal sounds better. That being said some of them...particularly the GR-50 and GR-1 track external sounds better than other models and NONE of them as well as a GI-10, GI-20 or any of the Axons.

Define "track".

For WHATEVER reason, in this case at least, MIDI is NOT always just MIDI.

I've spent a few seconds with them

Maybe that's the problem.

Or maybe the problem is you refuse to look at the manual. Anyway, as you refuse to answer my simple questions, like what exact unit we're even discussing here, I obviously can't help you. But there's no reason why an internal synth sound (assuming it IS a synth sound and not 6 effects that sound like a synth) would be more capable than an external. What about it is "better" when the internal sounds are played, vs. an external synth?

[CapnLockheed]

I don't need to look at a manual,(and I have BTW smartass), to know what HUNDREDS of other GR users also know. GR synths track internal sounds better than external synths. It's a FACT. ANYONE who has used one for more than "a second" knows this. It's been reported AGAIN and AGAIN. So I guess none of these hundreds of experienced users on all these forums know what they're talking about hrmn? Or maybe none of us lazy guitarists took the time to read the manual.

And if you had actually READ my post you would know that I did, in fact, "tell you which device I was talking about". As I thought I CLEARLY stated, I was talking about the ENTIRE line of GR synths with the exception of, as I CLEARLY pointed out, the 100, 300 & 500 and the 55 which I haven't owned.

Define "track"?? Are you kidding me?? The term is used by EVERYONE that actually plays MIDI guitar AND by both Roland and Axon in manuals and literature. There are literally THOUSANDS of posts all over the net just like this one:

germanicus2112
07-09-2010, 01:13 AM
Generally in terms of tracking accuracy the axons are the best. The Gr20/33/30 units track well (not quite as fast as the axons) and are very useable WHEN USING THE INTERNAL SOUNDS on those units. When driving external synths with the gr20/33/30 (by using the midi out 5pin on the back of them), tracking accuracy suffers a fair amount.


So you know better than ALL the rest of us. How wonderful it must be to be you.


I'm bored of this discussion and I've had enough of your attitude,(and I'm not alone there either). I tell you what. I won't respond to your posts anymore. Please don't respond to mine.

[AdmiralQuality]

I don't need to look at a manual,(and I have BTW smartass), to know what HUNDREDS of other GR users also know. GR synths track internal sounds better than external synths. It's a FACT. ANYONE who has used one for more than "a second" knows this. It's been reported AGAIN and AGAIN. So I guess none of these hundreds of experienced users on all these forums know what they're talking about hrmn? Or maybe none of us lazy guitarists took the time to read the manual.

And if you had actually READ my post you would know that I did, in fact, "tell you which device I was talking about". As I thought I CLEARLY stated, I was talking about the ENTIRE line of GR synths with the exception of, as I CLEARLY pointed out, the 100, 300 & 500 and the 55 which I haven't owned.

Define "track"?? Are you kidding me?? The term is used by EVERYONE that actually plays MIDI guitar AND by both Roland and Axon in manuals and literature. There are literally THOUSANDS of posts all over the net just like this one:

germanicus2112
07-09-2010, 01:13 AM
Generally in terms of tracking accuracy the axons are the best. The Gr20/33/30 units track well (not quite as fast as the axons) and are very useable WHEN USING THE INTERNAL SOUNDS on those units. When driving external synths with the gr20/33/30 (by using the midi out 5pin on the back of them), tracking accuracy suffers a fair amount.


So you know better than ALL the rest of us. How wonderful it must be to be you.


I'm bored of this discussion and I've had enough of your attitude,(and I'm not alone there either). I tell you what. I won't respond to your posts anymore. Please don't respond to mine.

[gnu23]

DNA is the polyphonic version of Melodyne... you can take a polyphonic track of a guitar, piano, organ whatever and DNA separates the audio into individual notes... it is AMAZING.

Go to the Celemony site and check it out.

Jim

Very encouraging to read this about DNA because I was thinking along the same line but hadn't found time to try it.

[CapnLockheed]

Nutter

You vehemently disagree with HUNDREDS of very experienced users and you call ME crazy??:shock:

Too bad there isn't an emoticon for what you are. Think I'll just go download me a warzed copy of Polyana & Scamp.

[siriusbliss]

None of the earlier Roland GR series can track external synths as fast/tight as the Axons.

Period.

I own both/several, and have tested many of the newer Rolands since the Axons are no longer being manufactured.

The newer GI's are better with external synths, but still not as good as the Axons.

It's something to do with how Roland's transient detection gets driven over distance to an external synth as opposed to internal synth sounds (and I'm NOT referring to the processed/effected patches). They've just never been as good with regard to latency.

G