Midi for guitar synthesizer input

[Meffy]

@CaptLockheed: Don't even joke about pirating software. That kind of thing gets people banned.

Of course you and AQ can disagree, but if you have to turn it into a fight, please take it to PM or email so it doesn't ruin the thread for everyone else. If you prefer to keep the dispute in the thread, keep things on a civil basis. Thanks.

[CapnLockheed]

My deepest apologies Meffy. I certainly do know better. I tried to end it but AQ just had to push the envelope and I lost it. I'm done here and it won't happen again...I'll be good...I promise.


Cheers....CL

[CapnLockheed]

None of the earlier Roland GR series can track external synths as fast/tight as the Axons.

Period.

I own both/several, and have tested many of the newer Rolands since the Axons are no longer being manufactured.

The newer GI's are better with external synths, but still not as good as the Axons.

It's something to do with how Roland's transient detection gets driven over distance to an external synth as opposed to internal synth sounds (and I'm NOT referring to the processed/effected patches). They've just never been as good with regard to latency.

G

Exactly some of the points I was trying to make. Those of us with real world experience with GI's, GR's AND Axon units KNOW these facts.

[Jake Jackson]

Sorry if this has been covered, but:

Will the Fishman TriplePlay work with an acoustic guitar? Or does it need to draw current from an amp? (The JRR site blurb specifically mentions that it adds midi to an electric guitar.)In the video, I could quite see if or how the unit is inserted into the signal chain. The unit plugs into the guitar with a 1/4" plug, and then you run a conventional chord from the guitar to the amp, which you set to 0 amplitude if you are playing a software synth?

If so, I guess an acoustic with a pickup could be used. But that makes me I worry about how to mount it. My own, and many acoustic-electrics have their socket in the end pin\strap holder. Anyone know how is the unit is attached to the guitar? I hope they've found a way to quickly mount and unmount it.

For that matter, can anyone tell how the pickups are mounted? Not with screws, surely.

[novelistus]

I think we are confusing a few things here. At least imho. Let me try to elaborate a little bit.
And please guys, be nice. Don't make me feel bad having delivered fuel for a forum dispute. This forum is a great resource to me and I am sooooooo happy it allows me to get in touch with so many skilled people. In a world where it is difficult to get good customer support fromt he manufagturers especially for older gear, a forum like KVR is a true treasure. I hope everybody can agree.

back to the MIDI and synths.. (and this is all just my 2 cts ....)

- I am perfectly happy with the tracking of my GR-33. I think it has ample adjustments to get really good tracking. And BTW, hitting the strings well has always worked wonders too in all kind of guitar playing. THere is no doubt that accidentally hitting (or touching) a string on a midi guitar has more ill effects than in an analog world. Of course you gotta run in mono mode and utilize the six channel output. I have never used the AX interfaces, so this all refers to my experience with the Roland

- I think what most of us struggle with is that we are not "totally happy" (big LOL) with the internal sounds of the GR-33 (or 55 or whatever we are using). And of course in my case running on OS X there isn't even a publicly available utility to download patches to the GR-33.
Anyhow, back to the sounds. Of course MIDI is MIDI. But dealing with 6 channels output from a STRINGED instrument into a Soft- or Hardsynth is NOT THE SAME as dealing with input from a Keyboard. Two totally different animals. I'll not go in the details of this, I am sure you all know the differences here.

- as to my knowledge there is no Softsynth out there at this time who is customized/taylored to deal with the specialities of a hex guitar midi signal. And I think that's exactly what we'd(at least me) need. A patchset for xxxxx-synth to make the best of the two worlds.The sounds in the VG-99 are pretty nice, the 55 and the 33 standard patches are simply not my taste. Or lets say some 99% of them.

- the sounds in my GR-33 may not be to my liking, but I have been able to tweak some sounds in the GR-33 to my satisfaction. But the procedure of course is a bit middle-earthish . I go down on my knees and push knobs on the 33.

- and needless to say that I am deeply disappointed that Roland does not give .......... about the GR-33 anymore. No Librarian available. Starts at the 55. I guess they like to sell me a VG-99 and you know what. I don't want another big box of equipment. I think this can be done with a piece of SW from any Hex Midi guitar.

- so basically I'd like to have two things. A utility to tweak the sounds of the GR-33 from my MAC world with the abrasion factor to my knees. The only OS X solution I have found is MidiQuest. And after going through the manual for a couple of hours now there is no doubt that MidiQuest could do all and more of what I like to do. It even comes with a GR-33 template. And of course MidiQuest would be the perfect building block of being my Midi control center for all my internal and external Midi gear. What has been holding me back spending the considerable $ for MidiQuest is that there is simply too many reports on how buggy it is. I have been in touch with the developer and he mentioned that he was busy with working with some of the HW folks to create their Midi interfaces for new HW and that he will continue developing MidiQuest. As the demo version of MidiQuest is quite limited, I am not sure if I will go this route. $ 300 just for controlling Midi sounds like too much to me. But don't get me wrong. I think if MidiQuest would be up to date and having a good rep, I'd fork up the $'s and just go for it.
(side question here would - what is everybody using as their "Central Command for Midi"?)

The other approach I am following right now is Midi Designer Pro. An iPad app ($ 18) which allows you to design a Midi interface running over the WiFi midi of the iPad. I have been using this now for a couple of days and so far I am quite pleased. I've been able to create controls easily to change programs and control effects so I will make an attempt to create a template which allows me to tweak the internal patches real time with an app in front of my eyes on the iPad while I am playing the guitar. And once satisfied, store it. And I also want to use it to set up sounds which are made of GR-33 patches and external synths (softsynths I run on OS-X) and control some backing tracks I have made on my Korg-M3. And once all is set up, then do the whole Midi control for the performance from the Midi guitar. But I am not sure yet if this will be a doable project or if it will require more new skills than I am willing to acquire.

But it sure is a sad fact that there isn't a good set of tools for the MUSICIAN to deal with the Midi world. While we have sound generators of all colours by now, able to generate the sounds of distant galaxies, while we have all that, it seems to me that we haven't found the Genie yet, who allows the non programmer freak to use it efficiently.

- and of course I'd spend money for a Softsynth tailored to utilize hex midi in and make something out of it without me having to generate the sound from scratch. And I don't really want to play preprogrammed piano or string sounds with my Midi-guitar. I want to optimize my guitar tone and modify and create other wild guitar tones.

I am having lots of time this winter and if by spring I haven't managed to integrate all my HW and SW gear, then I may pull the plug (literally) and go acoustic. I'm getting increasingly frustrated with especially the Midi part of computerized music and lets face, what I really want to do is MAKE MUSIC. I have no intention on becoming a Midi expert beyond the specifics of the midi implementation of a particular HW - SW device.

cheerio

[AdmiralQuality]

Anyhow, back to the sounds. Of course MIDI is MIDI. But dealing with 6 channels output from a STRINGED instrument into a Soft- or Hardsynth is NOT THE SAME as dealing with input from a Keyboard. Two totally different animals. I'll not go in the details of this, I am sure you all know the differences here.

It's exactly the same. MIDI note on message means start a note of a particular pitch with so-and-so velocity. MIDI note off means stop that note (if it's going).

The only thing particular to MONO mode is that technically the patch rendering it should be monophonic, though there's really no reason why you couldn't use a polyphonic patch as well (say you wanted long, overlapping, release times).

But the instrument doesn't know nor care if the MIDI note ons are coming from a keyboard, or from a guitar controller. It's just a note on. Followed by pitch bend messages so it can track any changes in the string's pitch. It's also possible there are some controller messages, though there are limited aspects of the guitar sound that we can use to extract these.

- as to my knowledge there is no Softsynth out there at this time who is customized/taylored to deal with the specialities of a hex guitar midi signal.

Yes there are. Poly-Ana and ImpOSCar v1 (I'm not sure about v2) do it. I'm sure there must be a few others. But again, even if your softsynth doesn't support this automatically, it's a simple matter to just run 6 instances of it and filter the incoming MIDI to each of the 6 incoming channels.

And I think that's exactly what we'd(at least me) need. A patchset for xxxxx-synth to make the best of the two worlds.The sounds in the VG-99 are pretty nice, the 55 and the 33 standard patches are simply not my taste. Or lets say some 99% of them.

Patches have nothing to do with it. Sure, some patches will lend themselves better to guitar technique than others, particularly patches with envelopes set to fast or instantaneous attacks, long decays, and short releases, to match the behavior of guitar notes. But there's no rule that says you need to have a patch like this. Even when playing with a keyboard, sounds with long attack times take a different technique than ones with short attacks. If you record a part for a long attack sound, then change the patch to short attack, the part will probably no longer work well.

- and of course I'd spend money for a Softsynth tailored to utilize hex midi in and make something out of it without me having to generate the sound from scratch. And I don't really want to play preprogrammed piano or string sounds with my Midi-guitar. I want to optimize my guitar tone and modify and create other wild guitar tones.

Well, synths are about generating sounds from scratch. Still, nothing stopping you from using pre-made patches.

Now, when you talk about "optimizing your guitar tone", you do realize that the guitar tone gets thrown away entirely when it's converted to MIDI, right?

I am having lots of time this winter and if by spring I haven't managed to integrate all my HW and SW gear, then I may pull the plug (literally) and go acoustic. I'm getting increasingly frustrated with especially the Midi part of computerized music and lets face, what I really want to do is MAKE MUSIC. I have no intention on becoming a Midi expert beyond the specifics of the midi implementation of a particular HW - SW device.

cheerio

There isn't much in MIDI to become an expert AT. Notes go on, notes go off. There's a single pitch bend on each of 16 possible channels. And there are continuous controller (CC) messages that can be mapped to controls and modulation inputs on the synth. I'm not sure if any of the guitar converters do this, but you could potentially make a CC follow the envelope of the guitar note, and then that could be used as a modulator in the synth. I think I read that the Axon was also extracting information about where the string was plucked (how far from the bridge) and is possibly putting that on a CC as well. It's your job as a synth programmer to then take those outputs and make the synth do something relevant with them. (Most synth patches don't expect modulation other than pitch bend and and mod wheel. Even mod wheel gets left out a lot in patches I receive from our users. I'm not sure why, AFAIK just about every keyboard controller these days, excepting piano controllers, have modulation wheels. But again, don't confuse the synth with its patches. Nothing stopping anyone from making a bank of guitar-friendly patches for whatever synth.)

[CapnLockheed]

Will the Fishman TriplePlay work with an acoustic guitar? Or does it need to draw current from an amp?

The Triple Play, like any magnetic hexaphonic pickup, will work with any steel stringed guitar acoustic or electric.