The songwriter's conundrum

[codec_spurt]

Wrote a song a few days ago. Loved it. Which is a good sign.

Few hours later, realised that not only had I lifted the title from Dylan, of all people, but, the chord structure and vocal melody resembled another one of his songs. Albeit an unreleased track. Doh, I hate it when that happens.

Still, it kept nagging. And I did it anyway. Turned out, that while, technically it was reminiscent of those tracks, no one in the world would know.

A bit like when I can hear the tune "Won't you take me to Funky Town", in half of the techno records I hear - it is personal. A musical tic, if you will.

Then, after I felt as if I got away with it, Simon and Garfunkel's Mrs. Robinson kept creeping into my head. Why? Lord? Why...

Ah... never mind about the Dylan rip off. This had the exact chord change and vocal melody of that tune... Well, just one bit - Hey hey hey hey. Doh.

Had to rip it out like a bad tumour. But the alternative whilst twee, is original to me (though it sounds a bit like another bit of one of my songs).
No matter. I'm all clear in copyright court.

So whilst most songs resemble something in reality, any song can be made to resemble any other, if you try hard enough. I coin this: The Songwriter's Conundrum.

I feel like, somehow, I have overcome it. Yet, no songwriter ever overcomes it... And maybe that is a good thing....

[elnn]

what?

[Cap'n Spanky]

what?

I know what he means. Feel like I have written a great lyric, only to realize one of my favorite lines is in another famous song that is similar in style to the song I just wrote.

I don't have a good answer for it. I guess either re-write the line or just hope that nobody notices.

[Tricky-Loops]

what?

I know what he means. Feel like I have written a great lyric, only to realize one of my favorite lines is in another famous song that is similar in style to the song I just wrote.

I don't have a good answer for it. I guess either re-write the line or just hope that nobody notices.

Is there a chance to write COMPLETE NEW lyrics that aren't already written by someone?

[codec_spurt]

what?

Quite.

Maybe when you have written over 200 songs, a hundred of them, of high quality, then you might get the feeling...

Cap'n Spanky has it.

It's not uncommon.
Sorry, this is advanced stuff.
Maybe I should have said.

I'm not even sure KVR is the right place for this kind of level I am talking about. Sorry to be an arrogant bastard, if I am....

Er, I've been writing songs on guitar for over a quarter of a century...

I don't post at songwriter forums. I like KVR and respect the people here, and was just wondering if anyone felt the same.

I can go and hang out with the big boys if I want. But I don't. I like KVR.

I'm a pretty successful and accomplished songwriter. I just never told anyone.
Still skint though. Like lots of other successful and accomplished songwriters.

I didn't come here to brag. I came here for discourse. I suppose time will tell...


cheers.

[codec_spurt]

Is there a chance to write COMPLETE NEW lyrics that aren't already written by someone?

No. You got it wrong. That is the easy bit. Lyrics are like code or binary, you can always come up with something different, even if it is not very good.

But the binding of chord progressions with lyrics and melodies is the hard part.

That is why a lot of people think music is crap these days.

Original lyrics are easy, to a wordsmith as myself. And the others. Being a poet helps too.

It's easy to write a crap song, or that song that every 'artist' of the last 10 years has been 'writing', it is not so easy to write something very catchy and memorable and good.

Again, this is advanced stuff, for advanced songwriters.

I just wondered if there were any at KVR. I automatically assumed there was. I am not talking about commercial success, or name-dropping, I am talking about being advanced in the art of songwriting - Chord progressions and lyrics combined.
The ability to write a Country and Western song, or a soul, diva like Donna Summer type track. Or folk, or anything really, as an advanced songwriter can do.

But if you only write in one style, that is ok too. But can you write high end stuff - lyrics, chord progressions?




Original lyrics are easy.
And being a poet helps.
But lyrics are not poetry.
And knowing the difference between the two helps even more.

I can write poetry.
I can write lyrics.

My poetry is pretty good, but not as good as the best.
My lyric writing is some of the best there is.

Er, I think I just stuck my head above something.
Man, I have been doing this for over a quarter of a century.
I should be good at something by now.
God knows, I am a useless computer programmer.


Anyway, this thread is titled the Songwriter's Conundrum. I spelt out pretty well what this meant. I invite replies from those that can relate to what I am talking about. If you can't and want to know more, I can explain. If you just want to take the ****, then go ahead. I'll just find another place other than KVR to talk about it. I don't need to talk about it. Like I said, I am a pretty successful songwriter already...

[vata44]

I also wonder why and where I get the ideas i have for my music...

i just let it come out, regardless though... I cannot imagine I am good enough to really "replicate" anyone without adding my own twist/weirdness.

As long as you're having fun... don't worry.

[MickGael]

Maybe when you have written over 200 songs, a hundred of them, of high quality, then you might get the feeling...

Cap'n Spanky has it.

It's not uncommon.
Sorry, this is advanced stuff.
Maybe I should have said.

I'm not even sure KVR is the right place for this kind of level I am talking about. Sorry to be an arrogant bastard, if I am....

Er, I've been writing songs on guitar for over a quarter of a century...

I don't post at songwriter forums. I like KVR and respect the people here, and was just wondering if anyone felt the same.

I can go and hang out with the big boys if I want. But I don't. I like KVR.

I'm a pretty successful and accomplished songwriter. I just never told anyone.
Still skint though. Like lots of other successful and accomplished songwriters.

I didn't come here to brag. I came here for discourse. I suppose time will tell...


cheers.

No lack of self confidence here.

I can relate, though. I've been writing songs for more than 27 years, and it does happen. It goes without saying that the even writers like Dylan have borrowed liberally. The gift comes in making that your own. These days (as I grow older) I am more interested in being productive and getting work done.

[MickGael]

The ability to write a Country and Western song, or a soul, diva like Donna Summer type track. Or folk, or anything really, as an advanced songwriter can do.

But if you only write in one style, that is ok too. But can you write high end stuff - lyrics, chord progressions?

I think this describes an ambitious songwriter. Or better yet, a craftsman. I aspire to this (as do you) and must confess in taking a modest amount of pride in feeling comfortable in approaching any style of music.

I leave it to others to decide if that makes me an advanced songwriter.

[rockstar_not]

codec-spurt, I've had similar experiences. This is partly what happens when writing songs, as you well know. It's unavoidable when so much of what meanders through our collective brains are fragments and threads of what exists there from before.

I would encourage you to hang at songwriter forums as well as KVR. In fact, there is a community of songwriters here that many of which will participate in February Album Writing Month at www.fawm.org (make sure to use .org and not .com) Thousands of songwriters from across the globe participate in this songwriting challenge to write 14 songs in the month of February.

Several participate also in the monthly KVR songwriting contests. You should too. Plugins for prizes for winning. Details in the Music Cafe forum.

Anyway, there are kindred spirits here at KVR. I wouldn't necessarily refer to us as the little boys compared to the 'big boys' at songwriters groups/forums - just a different focus.

[rockstar_not]

Oh, and let me admit that I'm a card-carrying member of the chord progression stealing, lyrical cadence borrowing, song-form following club.

I consider this to be the KVR-ian analog of using preset patches from plugins. I will happily do this if I like what I hear.

I don't worry about using presets if they inspire melody, chord progressions, etc. Same thing like if I've never tried a flat 6th chord in a major chord progression as the Beatles were wont to do, I'm gonna give it a whirl and see what comes out. Call me a cheater.

In fact, I didn't even come up with that trick on my own - I found it on Matt Blick's blog about common threads in Beatles songwriting. Matt is a FAWM.org participant and I've found his list of 'Tickets to Write' particularly inspiring for new things to try in my songwriting. http://beatlessongwriting.blogspot.com/ ... write.html I'd say Lennon and McCartney were pretty successful songwriters, why not implement their ideas like Matt has outlined?

-Scott

[ras.s]

Hasn't happened to me lyrically yet, I don't write much lyrics though.. But melodically, yea, several times. It's like there's some earworms that linger into the subconscious and then they surface as one's own ideas. I don't mind it much though, as I'm not really making music for anyone else than myself .. But it's a bit frustrating some time, 'cause like with this one melody line I came up with recently, I can't nail it down where I borrow it from.

And a few years back a friend of mine wanted me to listen to this one song he make, it had a real horn section and all, good conscious lyric, a catchy bass line. He was really excited about it, said he was going to make a 7" out of it. I listened to it and man it was a good song! But then I said to him that's just a remake of Aswad's Shine, and he's face froze for a second before he started screaming mad. He hadn't realized it was a song from his youth that had just surfaced back as his own.


I think it has something to do with, like codec spurt said, making a lot of songs/tunes -- but also with how something catchy is actually often something relatively simple, and how after going through so many variations of basic chord progressions etc, the brain just connects with something you've heard somewhere else. I don't know if that makes sense, but I can relate to this conundrum phenomenon.

[codec_spurt]

I also wonder why and where I get the ideas i have for my music...

i just let it come out, regardless though... I cannot imagine I am good enough to really "replicate" anyone without adding my own twist/weirdness.

As long as you're having fun... don't worry.

I have met girls who pick up a guitar and sing, singing songs they wrote.

So natural.

Some have mental health problems. I relate to them.


Humility, that is, the art of being humble, goes a long way in this business.
Whenever you hear a guitarist say:"Oh, I'm not very good." You better duck and take cover, because he is going to be blinding.

I know I came over as a bit of an arrogant prick. That is my guard. If you met me in real life, I would be very humble. I am very studied in the art of humility. But this is the internet, and I don't know why I waste my time.
I ask nothing. Expect nothing. It is nice to have a few replies such as yours vaisnava.. I bow my head to you.

These are the people I like to work with. When I produce, for that is what I really am - a producer - I like people who are humble too.


cheers.

[codec_spurt]

blah blah blah

No lack of self confidence here.

You mention Dylan, as I did. And there was that big fuss about his plagiarism.
As there was for Zeppelin. Boy, they cracked it black and blue.

But Page stood up and said: OY, that is what it's like. That is what this game is about. I respected him for that. There is a difference between that and someone lacking an idea for the chorus part ....


No lack of self confidence you say. Well, I gave that impression. But I have massive lack of confidence. Partly because of my lack of commercial success, but more because I hate the sound of my own voice. I send my tracks to award-winning songwriters raking in the royalties, they say - shutup! Hendrix was looking for a singer and when he couldn't find one he did it himself.

I'm not comparing myself to Hendrix and I don't think they were comparing me either. But they made a good point.


So, yes, massive lack of self confidence. Just because I know I can write a good tune, does not mean I have the ability to put it across for someone else to hear.


cheers.

[codec_spurt]

The ability to write a Country and Western song, or a soul, diva like Donna Summer type track. Or folk, or anything really, as an advanced songwriter can do.

But if you only write in one style, that is ok too. But can you write high end stuff - lyrics, chord progressions?

I think this describes an ambitious songwriter. Or better yet, a craftsman. I aspire to this (as do you) and must confess in taking a modest amount of pride in feeling comfortable in approaching any style of music.

I leave it to others to decide if that makes me an advanced songwriter.

Well, I just don't aspire to it. I am it. I can write a Country song as well as a pop song. A craftsman? Of course. If I had been studying Macramé for ten years, it would be a pretty poor show if I could not tie a knot.


You say you leave it to others to decide. I do that too. I blow my trumpet. Shoot me down. It is a shame that this is not the forum for sharing my work.
I am pretty anonymous here. Everyone thinks they know me, but no one does.


Maybe my Country is better than my Western?