Abbey Road/Waves REDD Console Channel Strip

[zedd]

I would think the people who should be most interested in this product were the Beatles fans out there who want to add a little of that Abbey Road magic to their tracks...

So when is someone going to give us a report on how amazing this plugin is at taking their recorded tracks and giving them that extra something that gives them the warmth and tonal fingerprint of Sgt. Pepper?

I'm sort of surprised that people who create electronica or thrashy metal grunge are interested in this plugin at all, even though it could probably add a nice touch to anything. It seems to me that the market for this product are fans of the Abbey Road sound who want to "get there" with that 60s yumminess in their own recordings.

There is no "wasted space" in this plugin because most people who buy it are looking to have the pleasure of having a bit of the famous (and most coveted) REDD desk on their computers. What would be the fun of being more space efficient without creating the experience of the vintage metering, faders and the console/desk sort of experience.

I wanna hear from Beatle fans.

That IK Multimedia "British Channel" has a 13 page thread dedicated to how ugly the GUI is, but contained a lot of input from users who have actually tried the demo and really liked the sound of the plugin. Where are all the folks who are trying out this demo??

Perhaps many are like me who don't feel like jumping through the Waves install hoops, and are waiting for a more opportune time to deal with it and then make the most use out of the free week.

I would have bought it already if it wasn't Waves. I really wish Abbey Road had selected to work with UA on this instead. I imagine I would want to use this on every track and would have preferred to run them all using an external processor like UAD-2.

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EDIT >>> Oh... I should add that I have greatly appreciated the input from those of you who have tried it and shared your observations. Thanks for all those who have taken the plunge and reported back so far!

[Compyfox]

I stopped using VOS plugins, since he stopped using OS.

I'd like to see a certain confirmation (source), where bootsie ever mentioned that he dropped using oversampling.

IIRC, almost all of his plugins use it, even the most recent ones. And may it only be 2x OS (which is usually enough IMO).

So when is someone going to give us a report on how amazing this plugin is at taking their recorded tracks and giving them that extra something that gives them the warmth and tonal fingerprint of Sgt. Pepper?

...

I wanna hear from Beatle fans.

AFAIR, Sgt. Pepper was half REDD and half TG console, recorded on to 4 track since the great british isands were a bit slow on technical equipment. Due to this, Pepper sounds different than "Help" ('65) or "Hard Days's Night" ('64), which clearly used the REDD and to some extend, also the "Brilliance" modules that were built to compensate on missing EQ bands.


This plugin in itself is rather amazing, just a bit large and overhyped to be honest (like I said, expected a bit more interaction with the faders). This is why I got the ANTEC EQ in the first place, since it was something different.

Both EQ's rather "cut" than boost due to their nature, and you only have two bands. And thankfully, they're mostly at the right frequency ranges for the transients (high frequency), the bass, and cutting unnecessary stuff in between (the mid section). Though it doesn't work for everything (unless you say "let's limit ourself to old days), and you have to listen.

I wouldn't use it for modern mixes, unless I know how the Brilliance Packs interact with the REDD console. Four to five band EQ's are just more flexible these days. Or a three band full parametric one with additional HP/LP filter.


I really can't say more about it.

[sunny_j]

I stopped using VOS plugins, since he stopped using OS.

I'd like to see a certain confirmation (source), where bootsie ever mentioned that he dropped using oversampling.

All his plugins with "stateful saturation" are oversampling-less. Just activate the S.S. and see the phase of the filters.

Regards

[Compyfox]

We should drop the abbreviations, cause I currently don't know what you mean by S.S. (unless you mean sound shaper).

I've refreshed my memories on the VoS stuff, and to my understanding, oversampling is only needed if the saturation is static (especially comps), not dynamic or frequency independent. Stateful Saturation is (to my understanding) dynamic and should sound not only the same no matter which sampling rate, but also don't have any sideeffects like static schemes.

You can prove this with Thrillseeker XTC - the higher the sampling rate, the more haywire the frequency response is getting. But if you measure the THD+N, you don't see any aliasing.



This brings me to both VCC and the WAVES REDD console, and the comment by TMaudio...

Why do you think that a plugin does not(!) use any oversampling, if there are clearly schemes by now that make it redundant?


On top of a question I asked in a lot of other threads, especially the 48kHz vs. 96kHz ones: If you drive everything to it's limits - do you even hear the subtle differences?


Could it be we're now on the level that all recent "digital" plugins are completely inferior and useless especially if they don't have Oversampling, Crosstalk, Saturation and Low Latency? No chance for innovation?

I thought engineers tried to improve the noise issues for the last several decades - only to now realise that the "audience" doesn't want it since it is inferior?

I sometimes don't get all these so called engineers in this particular case.

[sunny_j]

Hey compyfox, by s.s. i meant stateful saturation. The thing is, when you activate it, it also affects the phase of the audio stream. Thats why i said to activate it in the vst analyzer and look at the freq and phase response. Both are affected and you can see the phase cramp near nyquist. Hence my opinion of no oversampling. Do let me know your findings if you find time.

Cheers !

[audiovet]

DELETED

[zedd]

I don't know what the heck you guys are talking about. I just want to know if this plugin will make my tracks sound like the Beatles'.

[Lenticular]

I don't know what the heck you guys are talking about. I just want to know if this plugin will make my tracks sound like the Beatles'.

What do The Beatles sound like?

[zedd]

In truth, the Abbey Road sound is magical, and there is no question that the REDD desk played an essential role in helping to make those pre-1969 recordings so special.

But of course there is a whole lot more to it than that...

[Compyfox]

Hey compyfox, by s.s. i meant stateful saturation. The thing is, when you activate it, it also affects the phase of the audio stream. Thats why i said to activate it in the vst analyzer and look at the freq and phase response. Both are affected and you can see the phase cramp near nyquist. Hence my opinion of no oversampling. Do let me know your findings if you find time.

Cheers !

Okay, I gave a lot of plugins a testride with VST Plugin Analyser the last couple of minutes: IKM Pultec, G-Sonique Pultronic, asked a friend to provide Waves plots from the Puigtech, the (Mono) SSL Channel Strip and the Waves REDD console again, and I gave TESSLA PRO mkII another testride.

You know what...


TESSLA PRO mkII:
No phasing, the (wrapped) phase plot stays nearly flat unless you zoom in. Initial delay: 0


PUIGTECH:
Here, the phase does cramp (or make a drop) around Nyquist (20kHz), but according to your earlier analogy, a "steep cut" around Nyquist implies Oversampling, but Phasing would mean "not". Initial delay: 170.


IKM Pultec:
No steep HC at 20kHz unless I start using the oversampling mode. The phase actually creates a huge dip aroung 10Hz in both Low Latency, and Oversampling mode. Only that it's more smooth in Oversampling mode. Initial delay: 3 (low latency) and 131 (oversampling mode).


G-Sonique Pultronic:
Again, steep HC around 20kHz. And the phase shows some wonky readouts. But I remember that the plugin does use Oversampling (haven't checked the dev page, but I have the plugin for a while now). The initial delay is 0 btw!


Waves SSL4k Channel Strip:
The Phase is downright flat. And we have no steep LC at either sampling rate (VST Plugin Analyser goes up to 96kHz). The initial delay is 1.


WAVES REDD:
The 17 shows a some sort of "low pass" with 6dB/Oct as phase and some slight dip around 10kHz. There is no steep HC around Nyquist. Initial delay: 0

The 37 shows some sort of wide bell bump around 15kHz in terms of phase, and a steep HC (around 24dB/Oct) around Nyquist. Initial delay: 65

The 51 shows a similar phase response than the 37, but now comes the fun part. The frequency response has a steep HC around Nyquist in 48kHz, and a -5dB Highshelf at Nyquist in 96kHz.



Only two of the plugins showed a courve (like a S) in the waveshaper, that were the REDD.17 and TESSLA Pro, and one of the Pultecs showed a red oval orb.



Now, I'm no expert at measuring plugins like Christian Budde or Herbert Goldberg (VoS). But can you tell me now, which of these plugins do oversampling and which not? Which one of those is the most cleanest and "most true" to the original hardware?

And most important:
Which of these plugins can not(!!!) be used for actual music creation since they lack Oversampling, or low latency?!


I think I brought by point across.




Now to those that are still interested, here are the THD+N plots with -10dB of drive for all three preamps. And in direct comparision, the VCC RC Tube Console. Keep in mind, a pink readout means "no stereo shift", a red/blue one means that there is a shift taking place.


SLATE DIGITAL VCC RC TUBE (v1)


WAVES REDD 17 (mono, 48kHz, drive -10 instead of -6)


WAVES REDD 37 (mono, 48kHz, drive -10 instead of -6)


WAVES REDD 51 (mono, 48kHz, drive -10 instead of -6)



As you can see, the REDD doesn't introduce a shift in the stereo field (should not! I asked for mono plots, but stereo plots also remain "pink"), and the noise is about -20dB lower as well. In reality, you won't hear either. But if you want, raise the "analog" knob in WAVES to +20 or even higher and be happy.




HOW DOES IT SOUND?
Here's an A/B loop, made with the SKnote DBX C165A clone and some free reverb/delay, on top of normal 12dB/oct lowcuts of Cubase 6's channel strip.

Yes, that is Zero-G and Stylus RMX, the REDD was setup to 51 and used the POP EQ on the "front" loop, and the CLASSIC EQ on the Backbeat. No REDD on the additional highhats, plugins were underdriven (scratching 0VU, drive -10).

You should clearly hear the bass lift in the loop, and the sound shaping of the snare especially.

http://www.studio-compyfox.de/testcorne ... moloop.mp3


I didn't find that old "Creedence Clearwater Revival" mockup project I did in 2008 for a recording test (actually it was "Have you ever seen rain", 1971 - US band, probably no access to Abbey Road gear, the band was signed to Fantasy Records, the Fantasy Studios collection shows ton of API gear, they now use SSL's), else I'd fire up Jamstix with the BONZO KIT, RealStrat and some dirty organ sounds from Kontakt and mess a bit further with the REDD. But I think you get the idea.




CPU USAGE:
Two REDD instances on an i7 920 (stock) at 48kHz/24bit and Cubase 6 ate 6-10% ASIO/CPU. The two SKnote C165A's, 5 VUMT's, 2 reverb/delay modules and one StylusRMX instance I used ate about 12% - on playback I wasted 35-40% on the ASIO bus.

Yes, both the REDD and the SKNote plugins are CPU intensive.



SIDENOTE:
There are ways to create crosstalk with the REDD console. Just take a dive on Google and read up on how this effect is happening. Just a hint: pre-plugin.

Though I do prefer "no crosstalk" these days. Old consoles might benefit from that "charme", but engineers didn't try to erase that flaw for the last couple of decades without a reason.

[sunny_j]

And most important:
Which of these plugins can not(!!!) be used for actual music creation since they lack Oversampling, or low latency?!

When did I ever say these measurements had anything to do with music creation??? You can make brilliant music from the crappiest of plugins. That is IRRELEVANT.

Secondly, why are you showing these harmonic distortion plots? When I said about VOS plugins and the phase cramp I meant the phase (wrapped) plots in the frequency response section of the analyzer. The phase cramp might be so insignificant so as to be totally irrelevant to the sound, but that was never my point in the first place. I was just saying that the issue is there.

Anyways, the point for this discussion was purely for technical or opinion-related reasons, and NOT an indication about the QUALITY of the plugins which do not use oversampling.

Now, let's get back to the discussion about REDD.

Regards.

[hibidy]

I can't keep up with this stuff. I think it's great that you guys know how to test things visually and all but to me the best I can do is a/b it with material I've recorded.

[Compyfox]

I can't keep up with this stuff. I think it's great that you guys know how to test things visually and all but to me the best I can do is a/b it with material I've recorded.

I think this is the best you can do.

I might actually go ahead and do a 1:1 test with the ANTEC EQ by Nomad Factory, since it's on similar levels, but still having a mind of it's own. But this has to wait a bit.

When did I ever say these measurements had anything to do with music creation??? You can make brilliant music from the crappiest of plugins. That is IRRELEVANT.

Apparently, not to some. I don't mean you per se, but I read a tons of post on KVR recently, where there is constant moaning and whining about plugins not being oversampled, or CPU optimized, or low latency.

This is why I brought it up. And you to a certain extend as well.

Secondly, why are you showing these harmonic distortion plots?

I mentioned earlier that VCC RC Tube is on similar levels than the REDD, especially since both are tube consoles. Though one originates from the late 30ies to late 70ies, while the RCA Tube console was built in the 50ies.

When I said about VOS plugins and the phase cramp I meant the phase (wrapped) plots in the frequency response section of the analyzer. The phase cramp might be so insignificant so as to be totally irrelevant to the sound, but that was never my point in the first place. I was just saying that the issue is there.

Anyways, the point for this discussion was purely for technical or opinion-related reasons, and NOT an indication about the QUALITY of the plugins which do not use oversampling.

I posted my findings in text form, not plots. Else the thread would be spammed with pictures.

What I kind of don't get is the debate with the Oversampling. From the comments regarding the obvious lack (which I don't believe, as my findings show - OS'd plugins can be low latency and have phase cramps), I took it that the REDD doesn't perform well since:

a) it presumedly lacks oversampling for the .17 version
b) seems to use impulses for the EQ (which is not proven for this plugin, but I think for the Abbey Road Kings Mics)
and that all is backed up with
c) found cramping (phase) and steep HC around Nyquist

VST Plugin Analyser can only tell us so much, and there is a lot of room for interpretation. The only way we can know for sure, is asking the developers. And they will pretty much say what we want to hear.

So the only thing we can do, is give us a visual guide how the filters work/respond.


I admire the efforts, but the digital realm drastically enhanced throught the last couple of years. VoS proved it, other developers proved it, Paul Frindle (the comment by TMaudio) seems to prove it as well. So I don't get the constant debate.

Of course I'd love to have the ability to turn on/off OS at will, especially with SKnote plugins. But we face several issues these days. For one, overcompressed productions, so it doesn't matter if something is oversampled or not. Then we have CPU issues, even though PC technology advances quickly (though not every section, see Macs). And we have the industry, that is slowly focusing/forcing us users on to 96kHz, which in turn means that Oversampling needs more CPU usage as well. Or new means to get closer to the analog gear - sans the weaknesses.

So new technologies have to be initiated to benefit from the best of all worlds, while discarding the rest. And to be honest, I still use plugins from yesteryear as well. Underdriving them, but still.


This is why I commented on it.

Now, let's get back to the discussion about REDD.

I'm still on it. Are you?

[zedd]

As you can see, the REDD doesn't introduce a shift in the stereo field (should not! I asked for mono plots, but stereo plots also remain "pink"), and the noise is about -20dB lower as well. In reality, you won't hear either. But if you want, raise the "analog" knob in WAVES to +20 or even higher and be happy.

So for the layperson, what is the graph showing the different phase shifting with Slate VCC RC Tube actually indicating? Is that more or less realistic, good, bad or ugly? And is the REDD response indicating more accuracy in the detail or less?

[Compyfox]

The VCC THD+N (standing for Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise) compared to the REDD shows two different harmonic fingerprints in terms of "tube consoles", not phase differences or a frequency plot.

The REDD is fairly static on both channels, while the VCC due to it's "summing device" (I guess I should have posted the individual channel plot) has a slight shift in the stereo field. This is indicated by blue (L signal) and red (R signal).

Seeing as both have tons of harmonics, we can say that the circuit is farily detailed. But from the plots alone, we can't say if it's really realistic or not. I've seen plots where there were only 3-5 harmonics. And we can rule out standard used wave shapers.

How "good, bad or ugly" it is, depends on your liking, how you interpret it, how it feels to you, how it sounds.