Abbey Road/Waves REDD Console Channel Strip

[kvaca]

I didn't mess with EQ, volume, FX or samples throughout the whole production.

not true - at least for drums

but maybe you dont /directly/- maybe you have only used that sort of sample based drummer which triggers different samples randomly on every export audio mixdown...

please just look at the beginning of A/B files - on 250 ms there is a cymbal hit which is not only 2 times louder in file B than in file A, but it sounds like a completely different sample /much longer/ - I cannot believe that only crosstalk can be so loud!

A question to those that participate in that A/B test...
Do you think "crosstalk" is the thing you actually look for? Or is it really not needed?

I would never buy console plugin if theres no possibility to switch off all undesirable artifacts it creates /noise,crosstalk,bleeding etc/

[Compyfox]

I didn't mess with EQ, volume, FX or samples throughout the whole production.

not true - at least for drums

but maybe you dont /directly/- maybe you have only used that sort of sample based drummer which triggers different samples randomly on every export audio mixdown...

Ah, I see where you aim at.
Apparently, if you take a closer look at the Cubase mixing panel and the VSTi rack in the background (see screenshot on page 7), you can clearly see that there is one VSTi not frozen. And that is Jamstix.

Jamstix is in GM mode, and probably random triggering once in a while, even though I set it up to pure MIDI input and no drummers. Then yes I can agree that the A/Bing might be difficult. Will keep that in mind for my next render.

I would never buy console plugin if theres no possibility to switch off all undesirable artifacts it creates /noise,crosstalk,bleeding etc/

I don't remember it off hand, since I barely mess with the settings of VCC once I've set it up "once". But IIRC, it didn't have option to turn off crosstalk.

So I take it you actually do not prefer crosstalk, but think that mix B sounds a bit more "balanced" in terms of the stereo field. Duly noted.

[kvaca]

So I take it you actually do not prefer crosstalk

you are right

, but think that mix B sounds a bit more "balanced" in terms of the stereo field. Duly noted.

but the transients are unnatural and overall sound is dull

stereo field can be improved in many better ways,for instance adding more overhead or room mics, etcetc...you know off course it can also sound dull /especially if samples - or mics - are not phase aligned/- but this dullness sounds way more natural to me...

funny thing is that I prefer mics bleeding /especially in drum samplers like Superior drummer etc/...but thats a different story...

[zedd]

I have been of the belief that crosstalk is probably a good thing most of the time. Artifacts and ghost sounds and subtle interferences can add character to tracks. One of the things that has always troubled me about the realism of virtual drumkits is largely due to the fact that each kit piece has been sampled in isolation and so does not have the effect of interferences caused by the decay of the previous drum hits and the signal bleeding in from other drum mics. I don't know if that kind of "crosstalk" counts in this discussion, but it is an example of where the lack of crosstalk compromises the realism and flavour of the sonic image. The only way to get it sounding right again is to do things which will help generate artifacts to dirty things up a little.

I like a little interference. It adds character. But we need clean instrumentation in a good mix as well. If there is to much saturation/distortion, artifacts and crosstalk the mix can get messy quick.

The "bleeding" you describe in "Rubber Soul" could also come from common used (mono) reverb panned in the middle, which in turn is hearable on both channels of course.

That is a terrific idea! I'm going to try that.

I believe some imaging effects may have been applied when they bounced to the master.

If you aren't familiar with Rubber Soul, I strongly recommend that you acquire the album and start loving it immediately. If I had to pick my favorite Beatles album, Rubber Soul would be one of the top contenders. It is probably the one that is closest to my heart for assorted personal reasons. A lot of noteworthy aspects worth paying attention to include the remarkably short time it took to write and record all the songs on the album (one month), the first use of the sitar in a Beatles song (Norwegian Wood), and numerous other unique details (including the story of how "Dylan had just introduced them to pot" and that this was their pot album). It was certainly a more creatively evolved production than the album which preceded it only a few months before.

A transitional record for them and none of the others are quite like it--it's the bridge between the earlly Beatles and the Psychedelic Beatles. ( I probably don't need to mention that it was completely recorded through the original REDD desk).

[zedd]

funny thing is that I prefer mics bleeding /especially in drum samplers like Superior drummer etc/...but thats a different story...

You posted that while I was writing about the same thing. I don't have Superior Drummer, but I'll have to look into how it handles that.

[kvaca]

funny thing is that I prefer mics bleeding /especially in drum samplers like Superior drummer etc/...but thats a different story...

You posted that while I was writing about the same thing. I don't have Superior Drummer, but I'll have to look into how it handles that.

yes- AFAIK it was the first virtual drummer that was able to handle it... ...but its about 30 Gb of samples in wav, too!

[Compyfox]

I don't know if that kind of "crosstalk" counts in this discussion, but it is an example of where the lack of crosstalk compromises the realism and flavour of the sonic image.

In this particular case, we would call it "mic bleeding" or indeed "crosstalk". Though this kind of crosstalk is a tad different compared to mixing consoles.

At least IMO.




Regarding the demo mix:

I definitely had fun with this. For the last two hours I was messing with the mix again, this time with the Nomad Factory Altec 9063A clone and VCC RC Tube.

Right off the bat, VCC doesn't offer turning off the crosstalk on the summing device. Then again, neither with the REDD mix nor with this one did I use a summing plugin other than a stereo tape machine setup to 15ips. (again, the AMPEX ATR 102 that is built into Magnetic II, 15ips, saturation at 15, tape at "natural" and 25, GR was about 2dB on peaks maximum and very rare)


Due to request, here is the "REDD" mix again, this time with frozen Jamstix:
http://www.studio-compyfox.de/testcorne ... r_tape.mp3


Then this is the mix with VCC RC Tube and NF ALL-TECH 9063A on each channel (the sends are on drive +6, everything else on default):
http://www.studio-compyfox.de/testcorne ... eticII.mp3



Then to show, that the difference with a tube preamp on or off is really minimal (IMO):
http://www.studio-compyfox.de/testcorne ... eticII.mp3



Keep in mind, no mix uses crosstalk schemes!

What you hear comes from the drum overhead mics (called Ambience in Jamstix), a slight NY compression of them, with a plate reverb and a bright resonating hall on pretty much every instrument.

As I earlier mentioned, I tried to go for a some sort of Glynn Johns mic technique (but with stereo OH's), the rest comes out of the tin-can (Kontakt, RealGuitar, HalionSonic, StylusRMX).




And for sh*ts and giggles - this is what happens if you run the signal from tape (ATR-102 at 7 1/2 ips), into the REDD (with applied EQ), then into another tube amp (the RCA Tube console), through the Altec EQ (similar values as the REDD) and then back on to a two-track R2R (ATR-102 at 7 1/2 ips, a bit overdriven) again. Yes, it's a treble boosted mess. But imagine this mix being cut on vinyl or consumer tape, with more reverb - then we'd get closer to... well, you know.

Again - not for any serious representation:
http://www.studio-compyfox.de/testcorne ... _drive.mp3



DISCLAIMER:
These mixes are for demo, test and training purposes only. They are not for sale, neither do I pursue any commercial interests with it. Other than eventually buying the involved and to-test product (in this case, the Waves REDD, see summary).




ADDIONAL NOTES:

I had to setup the ALTEC 9063A to 100Hz and 5khz in order to get a similar behavior like the REDD POP EQ module (working at 100Hz lowshelf, 5kHz peak EQ and 10kHz shelving EQ). The Altec has a wider Q for the treble, and is (surprisingly) "felt" louder than the REDD EQ as well, even though there a no saturation modules built in.

So if I had an EQ on the REDD with (say) Bass -6 and Treble +6, I had to go for Bass -2 and Treble +6 on the Altec. Or -10/+10 (bass/treble) on the REDD, and -6/+10 on the ALTEC (In this case, this was the organ). On top of trimming the signal by -2,5dB to -1,5dB.

These EQ's are totally different beasts, and listening to the signal is definitely adviced. The bass lift of the REDD can't be reproduced for example, but boosting 40Hz instead of 100Hz on the Altec can get you a little bit closer.




SUMMARY:

Question again:
"Would you get the REDD modules, Mister Fox?"

I could again answer this with a "yes", since the EQ is different working than the Altec EQ. Also if I had the funds to burn. But as you could probably hear with the tracks above, the difference is marginal at best.

Along to that comes the preamp of the REDD. I have to say that neither the RC Tube nor the REDD made much difference (IMO). Though the REDD seems to sound a bit more softened out - even though I did underdrive both consoles. Even here, marginal difference. Especially if you already applied FX like a tape. It could have sounded different, if I maybe used the Radiator preamp (since this one is a dirty piece of gear!). But I think I tested more than I should already.

The whole concept of the VST plugin is indeed nice. Even after reloading the project with 11 instances of the REDD (on top of 12x Magnetic, 3 CPU heavy SKnote plugins, AT3 and a Nomad Tape/Tube warmer), I didn't hit the 95% ASIO mark this time, but a steady 80%. Then again, a combo of VCC RC Tube and the NF ALL-TECH 9063A might eat more insert slots, but the CPU usage with the very same setup is only 45% and sounds just as good. Though with minimal more effort (if you want to preset-match, else it's just your ears).

In all honesty - 200quids as into price is close to "a little bit pricey just for that purpose" - especially considering the competition. The intro price might work for those that collect gear. But 399USD MSRP, because it's Waves and Abbey Road is just a bit much in my opinion. Also considering the CPU load.

Hopefully they will either outsource the EQ module only, and/or incorporate the preamp of the REDD into NLS (along with the EMI TG console) while optimizing the CPU usage in the proces. Or Abbey Road would offer bundles where you can't refuse (not going to happen I fear). But individually, currently not a chance from my side. Unless I have too much money to burn.

I rather build one to two of the DIY modules that Nekro posted a couple of pages earlier, and then use whichever EQ I feel like. Reamping is not that much more work, but with actual outboard gear, definitely no CPU usage involved.

[zedd]

For the last two hours I was messing with the mix again, this time with the Nomad Factory Altec 9063A clone and VCC RC Tube.

For all my talk of dirtying up signals, my favorite of the new batch of demos is the third one with No REDD and No VCC included at all. It sounds more open and appropriate for *this* track.

Even though I have longed for a REDD desk plugin for years and have mentioned it numerous times in forums, I am putting my purchase of the product on the back burner for the time being. I still have to decide whether or not I want to take on Waves or just cut my losses with them... and I have bunch of other more pressing software expenses and can't afford the luxury of buying the REDD desk just to have it.

Besides, I have this feeling that there are going to be other REDD-inspired products coming out this year. Just the REDD EQ, would indeed be nice.

I agree that it would be cool if Abbey Road would release a Desk EQ product which provides the EQ section only from each of their famous consoles. I do like the idea of having more limited options when using EQ, and a product whose CPU usage is nearly transparent.

[Compyfox]

Nya, after like 3 hours of not listening to the stuff, I realise several things:

a) the tube console does treat the transients different than having no tube console available. Even if underdriven (this can be clearly heard with the drums)

b) in this particular example, even though RealGuitar is a great VSTi, it sounds crap compared to the rest of the instruments. But, it was mashed up MIDI with custom play of the guitar and certain edits here and there for the drums.

c) In direct contrast to the "feel" of the song and in retrospect, I think the kick is also too loud (read: modern) mixed. But this is always a matter of taste.


I only wanted to show that there are no drastic differences. And I think (hope!) that clearly shines through.

[@midnight]

Nya, after like 3 hours of not listening to the stuff, I realise several things:

a) the tube console does treat the transients different than having no tube console available. Even if underdriven (this can be clearly heard with the drums)

b) in this particular example, even though RealGuitar is a great VSTi, it sounds crap compared to the rest of the instruments. But, it was mashed up MIDI with custom play of the guitar and certain edits here and there for the drums.


I only wanted to show that there are no drastic differences. And I think (hope!) that clearly shines through.

i'd be interesting in seeing what these emulations do to the transients

if you could post the waveform of something spiky like drums or dry accoustic guitar, and then after it has gone through the rc-tube and the redd

because if the sound is still clean, but the transients are knocked back and rounded off quite nicely, that would be good for ITB

[Compyfox]

I can see what I can do, but I won't promise anything. At most, I can provide WAV snippets from selected individual instruments for you to analyse yourself.



Actually, since we talk about tubes in this case, everything that is run "through" a tube (or a slight overdriven transistor circuit) is getting slightly compressed in the process. This is a positive sideeffect of such devices.

On top of that, we get ton of additional harmonic content. So if a snare hit has (for example) only a fundamental at 500Hz and two harmonics at (say) 2kHz and 3kHz, then you run it through a tube device which adds "more" harmonics on top of it (see plots on page 7) - no wonder our ear thinks that the sound is more "rounded out".

In this particular case, we talk about an phychoacoustic enhancement/effect which tells us "ah! more bass and certain upper end", and also (due to the distortion of the content) "wait, was this compressed?"


This is the whole trick I think.
Just take a look on the SoundToys Radiator YouTube video, the SoundToys tech confirms this, even encourages to "abuse" the Radiator plugin just for this purpose. Though even "underdriven" it already messes a lot with the signal.

[@midnight]

Actually, since we talk about tubes in this case, everything that is run "through" a tube (or a slight overdriven transistor circuit) is getting slightly compressed in the process. This is a positive sideeffect of such devices.

On top of that, we get ton of additional harmonic content. So if a snare hit has (for example) only a fundamental at 500Hz and two harmonics at (say) 2kHz and 3kHz, then you run it through a tube device which adds "more" harmonics on top of it (see plots on page 7) - no wonder our ear thinks that the sound is more "rounded out".

exactly and this is where the loudness enhancement comes from, and the plugin that is able to do this in as clean as possible way is the winner in my opinion.

what i like about using high quality tube emulations is exactly the way they knock back and round off the transient, allowing you to boost the rms level without boosting the peak (and often times you can actually reduce peak level and gain perceived loudness) and doing so without the transfer function involved in a compressor. there is no envelope follower, so it is an "instant" type of compression that is much more transparent (transparent if the plugin can manage to do it without introducing too much audible distortion)

for this reason I almost always prefer doing "fast compression" jobs like transient reduction with saturation plugins, and stick to using compressors only when I want that slower type of compression.

[Compyfox]

Well, in terms of tube "preamps", there are tons of possibilities available these days.

Most current: SoundToys (both with Decapitator and Radiator), Slate Digital (VCC), G-Sonique, AcousticaAudio (Nebula presets), Xenium Audio, Waves (with their REDD).

You can pretty much abuse every available pultec on the market (I recommend the G-Sonique one, since you can change the tubes), in theory even tube guitar amps on the clean channel.


Come to think of it - with the array of tools we have available these days, also considering the price to get them. Do we really need another "console" if we could already build a custom ITB one ourself for at least the last half decade now?

Granted, this sometimes even means more insert modules involved. But it will certainly be a "one of a kind" console.

[kvaca]

Do we really need another "console" if we could already build a custom ITB one ourself for at least the last half decade now?

finally-that is the right question...personally I would prefer that Studio Devil VTP preamp, becouse it got much lower artifacts compared to others you have mentioned, and without any need for CPU hungry oversampling...but since I got hw TLA Ivory quad preamps many years ago I dont need it either...

[kylen]

Actually, since we talk about tubes in this case, everything that is run "through" a tube (or a slight overdriven transistor circuit) is getting slightly compressed in the process. This is a positive sideeffect of such devices.

On top of that, we get ton of additional harmonic content. So if a snare hit has (for example) only a fundamental at 500Hz and two harmonics at (say) 2kHz and 3kHz, then you run it through a tube device which adds "more" harmonics on top of it (see plots on page 7) - no wonder our ear thinks that the sound is more "rounded out".

exactly and this is where the loudness enhancement comes from, and the plugin that is able to do this in as clean as possible way is the winner in my opinion.

what i like about using high quality tube emulations is exactly the way they knock back and round off the transient, allowing you to boost the rms level without boosting the peak (and often times you can actually reduce peak level and gain perceived loudness) and doing so without the transfer function involved in a compressor. there is no envelope follower, so it is an "instant" type of compression that is much more transparent (transparent if the plugin can manage to do it without introducing too much audible distortion)

for this reason I almost always prefer doing "fast compression" jobs like transient reduction with saturation plugins, and stick to using compressors only when I want that slower type of compression.

Yes sir - this is exactly the same crossroad I hit after spending the month of December on TwinTube and Saturation type plugins. Eureka - leave the macro-dynamics of the song (per Bob Katz think) for envelope follower type devices like comps. Get tone, overtones, eq, micro-dynamics polish from Saturation & Harmonic waveshapers & other such things. Transparent & Round - yes! Now back to the primary topic...