Abbey Road/Waves REDD Console Channel Strip

[Compyfox]

finally-that is the right question...

I ask myself the question all the time.

personally I would prefer that Studio Devil VTP preamp, becouse it got much lower artifacts compared to others you have mentioned, and without any need for CPU hungry oversampling...but since I got hw TLA Ivory quad preamps many years ago I dont need it either...

There is also the SoftAmp 3OD, which has more valves at your disposal, but not as much editing capabilities (bass and tone at least, just voltage and tube).

I actually also liked the circuit mode of old Revalver mkII - don't know if this is still in most current ones, but with this you could pretty much create your own tube or transistor preamp. Someone should definitely create a plugin like that.

Personally, a "ultimate" saturation plugin as "preamp" to me would be a mix of Decapitator and Revalver MkII's tweak functionality - but dead simple (like: three tubes in parallel, model this'n'that - or transistor model this'n'that on input, and tube on output).

I can at least dream.



But taking a look at current plugin creations with tube preamps - well, ton of good stuff around. Some is just too CPU intensive (see: REDD).

[@midnight]

Personally, a "ultimate" saturation plugin as "preamp" to me would be a mix of Decapitator and Revalver MkII's tweak functionality - but dead simple (like: three tubes in parallel, model this'n'that - or transistor model this'n'that on input, and tube on output).

fabfilter saturn is pretty close to perfect for me.

i really like the clean tube setting, and with the HQ 8x oversampling it is virtually artifact free. great for adding some juice without too much audible distortion.

and the fact that you can do like, 'clean tube' on the lows, 'warm tube' on the low mids, 'warm tape' on the upper mids, and 'clean tape' on the highs (just as an example) makes it very customizable. the amount of per band adjustment makes it hard to imagine not being able to replicate virtually anything with this plugin.

[hibidy]

So the a/b was with first, w/o second?

[Compyfox]

Not revealing yet.

Current votes were:
A is with crosstalk - 1 vote
B is with crosstalk - 2 votes

Give me at least until 1st Jan, then I'll reveal it.


The A/B audio demos on page 1 didn't change btw. I only added mixes with VCC/Nomad Factory plugins.

[hibidy]

Tease!

Btw, I'm saying "crosstalk" I'm saying A sounds best to my little ears

[zedd]

-Current votes were:
A is with crosstalk - 1 vote
B is with crosstalk - 2 votes

Yeah... me too. I wasn't saying that B is with crosstalk. I only said that B sounds better to *my* ears.

[Compyfox]

Okay, then I need to recast:

Without Crosstalk:
hibidy - A, zedd - B

With crosstalk:
kvaca - B

I provided the demos, and so far noone has futher participated. Though tnteresting results.


To whose that follow the thread, but are lost in the "posts":

First audio demos and A/B test:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 65#5188365
(a couple of posts earlier, there are also THD+N plots)

New audio demos with VCC/Altec 9063A compared to the REDD:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 79#5189379

[zedd]

Okay, then I need to recast:

Without Crosstalk:
hibidy - A, zedd - B

With crosstalk:
kvaca - B

I think there is some confusion here... I don't think either Hibidy or myself are saying which demo we think uses Crosstalk. We are both offering our opinions about which demo sounds better, without attempting to suggest which example actually uses crosstalk and which one doesn't.

I may be mistaken, but I think Hibidy meant to write "Btw, I'm (NOT) saying "crosstalk" I'm saying A sounds best to my little ears" ... but he will have to clarify that.

If you are asking me which demo utilizes crosstalk, my answer is that I have no idea, since I have no reason to assume that your digital crosstalk emulation is more or less likely to improve or worsen the sound of a mix. I can only suggest which mix sounds better, and that is B for me. The results of this test will be the point where I can start to formulate an opinion on the benefits or deficits of using crosstalk emulation.

[kvaca]

Okay, then I need to recast:

Without Crosstalk:
hibidy - A, zedd - B

With crosstalk:
kvaca - B

I think there is some confusion here... I don't think either Hibidy or myself are saying which demo we think uses Crosstalk. We are both offering our opinions about which demo sounds better, without attempting to suggest which example actually uses crosstalk and which one doesn't.

I may be mistaken, but I think Hibidy meant to write "Btw, I'm (NOT) saying "crosstalk" I'm saying A sounds best to my little ears" ... but he will have to clarify that.

If you are asking me which demo utilizes crosstalk, my answer is that I have no idea, since I have no reason to assume that your digital crosstalk emulation is more or less likely to improve or worsen the sound of a mix. I can only suggest which mix sounds better, and that is B for me. The results of this test will be the point where I can start to formulate an opinion on the benefits or deficits of using crosstalk emulation.

I feel sorry for you, Mr Fox-not only it looks like nobody now wants to play your game,but moreover some votes looks invalid

[Compyfox]

Then I guess I should clear this up to start debating.


Demo A is without any crosstalk matrix. As with the REDD, the VCC/ALTEC and the ALTEC only demo (page 9), this is a plain stereo mixdown that is printed on a virtual tape (in this case, Magnetic II with an AMPEX ATR-102 in 15ips mode).

Demo B is the very same mix, but with a Crosstalk matrix pre-tape.

The difference is subtle, but this is what I was aiming at. I wanted to know/show/prove if there are any real benefits of actually "implementing" such schemes with certain (if not all) console type or even summing plugins. As it is for example the case with TESSLA Pro, or pretty much every "stateful saturation" induced plugin by VoS on stereo signal.


I'd love to have the option to actually turn that feature off. With a lot of plugins it's just too prominent. Granted, it sounds "gel'ed togehter" (to some, I have to admit, I like VCC's NEVE setup). But I work in a digital environment, where no channel bleeding is happening. And should not either.

I rather focus on input preamps (while recording) or certain "character" devices (like Tube EQ's or Opto comps with tube input/output stages) rather than mashing up my carefully constructed sound with a plugin that bleeds the left channel into the right, and the other way around. EQs, Comps, Delays, Reverbs, not to mention Chorus and Flanger plugins these days that are built after old gear already add ton of the so called "mojo" (harmonic content). Why add even more and loose control of it?


I can only emphasize this again - engineers didn't try to fix this flaw for the last decades just to use plugins these days that are not able turn off the crosstalk, or over prominent noise and distortion.

This is why I also try to teach users a proper gain staging way (VU/Digital meter combo, calibrated levels) without using a console type plugin. Because, then the console can be activated as needed - not the other way around. Read: "without a console type plugin, a production sounds like crap". Wrong approach IMO.



Again, I would get the REDD mainly because of the EQ, but for this the GUI is a waste, and the CPU power is intense. I'd also get it as preamp, but the same rules as with the EQ apply. Different plugins, or at least CPU optimized and a bit different priced - fine with me.

And even if people say "without crosstalk - yadda yadda" - that's just not true. Without that forced-to workflow I can at least mix and match to my liking - if I really feel the need about it.

Someone ever thought about that?



In the end, this plugin just just another tool among many. With some setbacks by modern standards. But after creating the demo mix, I wouldn't say that this console/EQ concept was ever bad. It's part of the evolution of consoles!

Now I'm waiting for even older concepts to re-explore. I mean, what about recording techniques in the 10s to 20s of last millenia? Does someone even dare(!) to revoke coal type microphones again? Other than with impulses I mean. (yes, I know that there are one or two hardware devs that build such microphones again - I'm just saying)

Or what about 4-track and 8-track with speeds other than 7,5/15/30ips other than NF Magnetic (which doesn't do a good job for "Consumer Casette" IMO)?


If you want to go the way of "old days" - do it full cycle and not just "selected".

[kvaca]

OK...preferences:

hibidy,kvaca - prefer transparent mix /A/
zedd - prefer slight mess /B/

...resume:

nice test, Im waiting for another one in 2013...but please with same drums in both files

[Compyfox]

But maybe not with the REDD then.

And I might ask for someone to provide a mix, I'm not that good of a songwriter after all.

[zedd]

OK...preferences:

hibidy,kvaca - prefer transparent mix /A/
zedd - prefer slight mess /B/

...resume:

Except for the fact that I chose B because it sounded more transparent (or rather had a clearer imaging) to my ears.

[kylen]

A sounds more transparent to me. I could swear I hear the keys in B 'beating' against something somehow...

With vocals and some lead guitar (and cowbell) and some loudness (mastering limiter) I doubt I could hear any difference.

[Compyfox]

Even if I would have mastered it (which I didn't want for this example), I would have not gone higher than K-16. This mix was around -19dBFS, so additional +3dB without drastic compression/limiting wouldn't have hidden anything.