ValhallaVintageVerb 1.7.1. Two new reverb modes (Chaotic Hall, Chaotic Chamber)

[Bronto Scorpio]

I tried to hate BTW, I tried very hard to say "meh, I already have enough verbs" it was epic fail.

Yeah, I tried it too,
It was indeed an epic fail
I already have so many good reverbs! Ths is the last one! I promise!

Anyway here is a Cheesy D-50-ish Zebra sound through VVV to start the new year

D-50 Chorus Space

And the preset:

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<ValhallaVintageVerb pluginVersion="1.0.0" presetName="D-50 Demo Preset" Mix="0.307999998" PreDelay="0.192000002" Decay="0.363999993" Size="0.808000028" Attack="0.400000006" BassMult="0.601999998" BassXover="0.395518154" HighShelf="0.708000004" HighFreq="0.5" EarlyDiffusion="0.80400002" LateDiffusion="0.899999976" ModRate="0.111000001" ModDepth="0.5" HighCut="0.632000029" LowCut="0.0359999985" ColorMode="0.666666687" ReverbMode="0.25"/>

And here is the piano demo I posted earlier again (I totally forgot to post the preset):

Piano Mod Hall

The preset:

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<ValhallaVintageVerb pluginVersion="1.0.0" presetName="Piano Demo Preset" Mix="0.400000006" PreDelay="0.25" Decay="0.453000009" Size="1" Attack="0.400000006" BassMult="0.578999996" BassXover="0.463999987" HighShelf="0.787999988" HighFreq="0.5" EarlyDiffusion="0.451999992" LateDiffusion="0.751999974" ModRate="0.392929316" ModDepth="0.400000006" HighCut="0.592000008" LowCut="0.128000006" ColorMode="0.666666687" ReverbMode="0.0416666679"/>

Cheers
Dennis

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Question for Sean: from a design perspective, would it be accurate to say that the 70's mode is more 224-like (in terms of sampling rate/brightness/modulation), with the 80's mode being more 480-like and Now mode just being a much cleaner than the former two?

The 1970s mode is definitely 224-esque, but it is more "generically" inspired by 1970s reverbs such as the 224 and EMT250. The lower sampling rate is typical of digital processors from that era, and will put certain signal processing artifacts into a more pronounced audible range versus running at the full sampling rate.

The 1980s mode is full bandwidth, but has artifacts reminiscent of the older Lexicon stuff. When I was running test signals through the Concert Hall algorithm in my PCM70 and the "Reverberation" algorithm in my Lex 300 (which seems similar to the Random Hall algorithm in later Lex 300 ROM revisions), I was struck by how darned noisy the modulation was. It pretty much swamps any of the more subtle bit depth effects in the Lexicons that I worked with.

NOW mode is full bandwidth and clean. I turn off the modulation noise in the NOW mode, and use a "cleaner" delay interpolation.

Also, from what boxes would you say each reverb algorithm was inspired by? Was the goal to shoot for an 80's Lexicon sound on all of these algo's, or is there more of a "bit of 224 here, some 480 here, with some PCM there" kind of thing going on? Example: can you point to say the Room algo and say, "oh that one's similar to the 224" whereas "the plate is close to the 480 Plate" or is it not that simple?

None of the ValhallaVintageVerb algorithms are 1:1 reproductions of any specific algorithms. Some are closer to a specific hardware implementation than others, but I added extra filtering, diffusion and modulation as I saw fit.

The Concert Hall and Bright Hall are closest to the various Hall algorithms found in the 224, 224XL, PCM70, and other units I haven't heard. I dialed in the sound of those algorithms using my PCM70 Concert Hall as reference.

The other algorithms occupy a zone somewhere between the 224XL and 480L. I was influenced by the post-224 Lexicon topologies, i.e. the Rich Chamber and Rich Plate algorithms which were introduced in the 224XL, and were used as the basis of most of the Lexicon algorithms to follow. The Shape & Spread parameters were introduced in the 480L, and I incorporated this into the Attack settings of most of the algorithms - but I also incorporated the "Attack" techniques used in my PCM70, which is closer to what is found in the Position slider in some Eventide reverbs. I used the random modulation of the 480L Random Hall in Random Space, but the other algorithms use chorusing modulation closer to the 224 and 224XL. My guess is that my modulation is more widely distributed than in these older boxes, as they were limited in the amount of cycles that could be applied to interpolation.

The Ambience algorithm is the one that I based the most closely on a specific hardware implementation. I really worked hard at dialing in the randomized early reflections of the Lexicon 300. I don't think the results exactly duplicate the 300 algorithm, but it is impossible to do any sort of null test with this sort of randomization.

The late reverb in the VeeThree Ambience is totally different than the late reverb in my Lex 300, as the Lex 300 Ambience late reverb totally sucks. It's not even a reverb: IT'S AN ECHO. Just a simple stereo delay line, which has the randomized early reflections sent into it. My guess is that this is due to the amount of cycles available in the Lex 300, and that the decision was made to spend the cycles on the early reflections. Which is a good choice, as it is a great sound. Fortunately, cycles aren't as big a deal in native code, so I was able to put a more complex Chamber late reverb in my Ambience algorithm.

Sean Costello

Super informative Sean, thanks! And happy new year!

[valhallasound]

It is interesting thing olikana started to discuss. I want to ask similar things to people who knows Lexicons very well.
I want to set VVV to sound more like 480L than other Lexicons. How to do it?
For example, one of questions is what mode I have to use? Random space with pitchless modulation, if I understand correctly, is characterful mode of 480L. And what about other modes? Can 480L use pitch modulation like other VVV modes?
And besides modes and color what are characterful settings differentiating 480L from other Lexicons?

Disclaimer: I've only spent about 1/2 day with a 480L. Don Gunn and I rented one while dialing in presets, but the 480L we rented had an older ROM revision. It had the room/hall/plate reverb algorithms, but it was missing Random Hall and Ambience. So take all of the following with a grain of salt.

480L Random Hall: Closest to the VeeThree Random Space mode. My guess is that Random Space has a slower attack (with all settings of Attack) and more initial diffusion, as I made these changes to Random Space versus the randomized reverb algorithm in my Lex 300. Without having a real 480L Random Hall on hand to test things against, I can't really say that Random Space gets all that close to the 480L. I could compare it against Warp69's plugin, but that would be cheating.

480L Room/Hall/Plate: I'd use the Chamber algorithm in VintageVerb. Turn the Mod Depth down to 0%, as the basic "reverb" algorithms in the 480L had NO modulation. No chorusing modulation, no randomized modulation, nothing. Personally, I like the 224-type chorusing modulation in there, but this is due to having spent some formative time with a 224XL. The Chamber algorithm probably has higher initial diffusion than the 480L algorithms, but I tried to keep the initial diffusion time about the same (I just increased the density of that initial diffusion "burst").

480L Ambience: Probably similar to the Ambience algorithm in VeeThree. Apparently the Ambience algorithm first launched with the Lexicon 300, and was then ported to the 480L at a later date, so I'm presuming that the algorithms are fairly close. Again, I have no way of proving this.

I have to admit that I don't understand why Lexicon removed the pitch modulation from the reverbs in the 480L. To my ears, the basic "reverb" algorithms in the 480L we rented sounded almost identical to the reverb algorithms in my LXP15. Michael Carnes (I think - maybe it was Casey from Bricasti) has said that the hardware LXP algorithms were derived from the 480L. I wouldn't have believed it until I heard the 480L in person, but the similarities are striking. Especially since the 480L hardware still costs upwards of $5000, while you can find the LXP-1/5/15 for about $150 nowadays.

Sean Costello

[valhallasound]

ValhallaVintageVerb on an iPhone!!!

[mandolarian]

Cool, Sean. Some may have wondered when the AAX versions of VVV would arrive. Now we know. After the iOS version is released. That you could optimize the interface to a single control is brilliant! iVVV will be the smartphone verb of choice for all my future calls.

[trance_lucent]

Disclaimer: I've only spent about 1/2 day with a 480L.

Big thanks for the explanation! I want to return home and try VVV demo again.

I have to admit that I don't understand why Lexicon removed the pitch modulation from the reverbs in the 480L.

I don't know how randomizing modulation in Lexicon is working, and also don't know VVV's Random Space algorithm. Brief mindstorm resulted in some sort of granular algorithm where are some "readers" in the DDL fading in and out and changing its positions inbetween. May be I am completely wrong. But there are strange references in the internet (i. e. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end ... tiary.html) that such modulations can be noticeable especially with extreme settings. Don't sure if pitch distortion they mean. Also the 480L manual says that modulations can be noticeable.

edit when i wrote this paragraph, I also wanted to say that random hall modulation supposed to be pitchless, but these strange internet notes may be reference that there is some sort of pitch modulation in extreme settings?

I like chorusing modulation too, but sometimes it can born some strange swirls, very noticeable pitch distortion while overall level of pitch modulations can be quite pleasant. And randomizing modulation supposed to be good alternative, useful for some acoustic instruments where pitch have to be stable. And Lexicon claims that randomizing modulation can make reverb spectrum more even, smooth like chorusing modulation.

I still haven't purchased VVV but think I am near. I very like the way early reflections blend with late. Most modern reverbs have distinctive early and late reflections living its own life, not blending with each other. ValhallaRoom can make blend more pleasant if I send early to late. I think VVV does similar thing.
But I still find VR more "3D" than VVV.[/b]

[LiteOn]

Hi Sean,

first of all, happy new year!

Very informative reading, thanks for that. Btw, I would take those lines to create some new blogs on the vVv, they're really worth it.


Cheers,
LiteOn

[Bronto Scorpio]

Hi Sean,

first of all, happy new year!

Very informative reading, thanks for that. Btw, I would take those lines to create some new blogs on the vVv, they're really worth it.


Cheers,
LiteOn

+1
The Valhalla blog is always fun to read.

I'm just trying some of my Zebra presets under real world conditions (using them in a track).
While I did that I sent one of them through VVV to see how it sounds.

Here is the result:

Dry
Wet

And the preset:

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<ValhallaVintageVerb pluginVersion="1.0.0" presetName="Cinematic Brass Demo Preset" Mix="0.400000006" PreDelay="0.185478449" Decay="0.305999994" Size="1" Attack="0.200000003" BassMult="0.552999973" BassXover="0.465000004" HighShelf="0.579999983" HighFreq="0.335999995" EarlyDiffusion="0.699999988" LateDiffusion="1" ModRate="0.141000003" ModDepth="0.456" HighCut="0.451999992" LowCut="0.0160000008" ColorMode="0.333333343" ReverbMode="0.166666672"/>

Cheers
Dennis

[sqigls]

Cheers and thanks to Bronto Scorpio for the patches!

2 Questions for Sean...

1. VVV doesn't recall/retain its GUI size when I reopen it on OSX 10.8.2, Ableton Live 8.3.4 x32, is this a bug or am I blind and not seeing an option somewhere?
2. Why are the patches stored in a totally different location than Uber Mod (OSX).

[hibidy]

It's gotta be a bug. It retains size here (but I'm windoze live beta 8.4 x64)

[sqigls]

I've just loaded up the windows machine, and it doesn't save the GUI size either. Both Live 8.3.4 and 8.4b9.

[Win7 x64]

[TristezaOrange]

ValhallaVintageVerb on an iPhone!!!

Please, can we have that image to use as a background on our phones? Pretty please?

[IIRs]

Just bought this without bothering with a demo as I've had so much use out of VRoom. Looking forward to trying it!

[valhallasound]

I've just loaded up the windows machine, and it doesn't save the GUI size either. Both Live 8.3.4 and 8.4b9.

[Win7 x64]

Are you talking about the GUI size per instance in a saved session?

Sean Costello

[hibidy]

Just checked again, full version, win7x64, live 8.4beta. No problem

I'm running at 48k, could that make a difference?