Abbey Road/Waves REDD Console Channel Strip

[zedd]

With vocals and some lead guitar (and cowbell) and some loudness (mastering limiter) I doubt I could hear any difference.

Agreed. The differences were miniscule.

Thanks Compyfox for the opportunity to listen to those variations. Some knowledge has come out of this exercise.

[Compyfox]

It definitely has.

[kylen]

Even if I would have mastered it (which I didn't want for this example), I would have not gone higher than K-16. This mix was around -19dBFS, so additional +3dB without drastic compression/limiting wouldn't have hidden anything.

I'm a K-14-ish kind of guy myself, but I was thinking earlier I wonder what metering you use, VU and such. I have an outboard UltraCurve2496 sitting on my DAC but in my Reaper DAW I use SPAN (+3), FreeG to set gain staging and tried Klanghelm VU as well as PSP VU. ToneBooster has EBU which I'm getting into.

Kind of OT but what metering did you use for judging your K-16 settings?

[hibidy]

Like I said, for me, what I do is listen to the individual instruments and think which one is clearer.

There is no right/wrong answer.......but it's FUN to do this stuff

[@midnight]

I try tto get my mixes around -6 rms

[Compyfox]

I'm a K-14-ish kind of guy myself, but I was thinking earlier I wonder what metering you use, VU and such. I have an outboard UltraCurve2496 sitting on my DAC but in my Reaper DAW I use SPAN (+3), FreeG to set gain staging and tried Klanghelm VU as well as PSP VU. ToneBooster has EBU which I'm getting into.

ITB I use the following combo while recording/mixing:
Klanghelm VUMT (setup to -18dBFS) and the DAW's digital meter. I pretty much have a VU on every channel.

With the digital meter, I use color codes inspired upon DIN meters (green up until -18dBFS, yellow up until -9dBFS, red from -9dBFS and onward), and I stick to it on a per-channel basis. On the master/summing bus I allow myself to go as high as -3dBFS, but usually I do not exceed -6dBFS while doing postpro.

OTB, I currently don't have any VU. But I will either get one or build one myself this year for better signal setup while recording. Most consoles these days only have PPM's - and even thouh I do not exceed the "green zone" on the console while leveling in, this doesn't work for bass intensive material.

Kind of OT but what metering did you use for judging your K-16 settings?

I know the K-System meters up and down, so I can use either meter to my desire. Curreny I have a stereo instance of VUMT on my summing bus, setup to standard VU behavior at -18dBFS. If I hit +2VU, I'm pretty much at K-16 average. Though I didn't in this particular case.

Before I started using EBU Loudness by ToneBoosters with the K-System v2 settings while mastering, I was actually using whatever VU I could find (600ms rise/fall) or simply InspectorXL before it got discontinued. Sometimes even RME DigiCheck - though I'm lazy to set that one up to MultiMeter and have a huge window constantly open.

I try tto get my mixes around -6 rms

Would be too loud for me.

[kylen]

ITB I use the following combo while recording/mixing:
Klanghelm VUMT (setup to -18dBFS) and the DAW's digital meter. I pretty much have a VU on every channel.

With the digital meter, I use color codes inspired upon DIN meters (green up until -18dBFS, yellow up until -9dBFS, red from -9dBFS and onward), and I stick to it on a per-channel basis. On the master/summing bus I allow myself to go as high as -3dBFS, but usually I do not exceed -6dBFS while doing postpro...

OK great - I had been using FreeG for channel FX bus gain staging (since it already has a gain slider in it) but am leaning towards VUMT readouts more and more. So I guess I'll have VUMT preceeded or followed by FreeG now.

I know the K-System meters up and down, so I can use either meter to my desire. Curreny I have a stereo instance of VUMT on my summing bus, setup to standard VU behavior at -18dBFS. If I hit +2VU, I'm pretty much at K-16 average. Though I didn't in this particular case.

Before I started using EBU Loudness by ToneBoosters with the K-System v2 settings while mastering, I was actually using whatever VU I could find (600ms rise/fall) or simply InspectorXL before it got discontinued. Sometimes even RME DigiCheck - though I'm lazy to set that one up to MultiMeter and have a huge window constantly open.

Yes I had InspectorXL also but switched to another PC and didn't bring it. I remember some conversations you've had about ballast and VU and loudness. Just trying to stay in the same ballpark when listening to shootouts and such.

[Compyfox]

OK great - I had been using FreeG for channel FX bus gain staging (since it already has a gain slider in it) but am leaning towards VUMT readouts more and more. So I guess I'll have VUMT preceeded or followed by FreeG now.

Just as hint like it works with an OTB console, and how I work with Cubase (logic doesn't have a channel gain/trim knob, so you need an extra plugin or one with that feature built in):

Cubase Channel:
Channel Gain/Trim -> VUMT (Insert 1) -> Console/Tape type plugin (insert 2, if needed), etc

Cubase Summing channel:
VUMT (Insert 1) -> ConsoleTape type summing plugin (insert 2, if needed)... and mostly that's about it

Recently, I don't use as many console/tape type plugins. I only use VUMT as add-on to my digital meter within the host. Of course, a freeware VU with 300ms rise/fall and configurable reference level would just be suitable.

Yes I had InspectorXL also but switched to another PC and didn't bring it. I remember some conversations you've had about ballast and VU and loudness. Just trying to stay in the same ballpark when listening to shootouts and such.

I'm a bit off the charts on this. Meaning, I think a bit different than most people.

But these days my main three weapons for measument are:
a fully configurable VU, a digital meter, and an EBU Loudness meter that I can either setup to my needs (color code, reference level) or simply the one by ToneBoosters (EBU Loudness/Compact).

I don't mess that much around anymore with DR-Meters, Din/Nordic Meters or whatever. It's good to know what they actually measure and how to read them. But in reality - while recordng and postpro - a VU/Digital meter combo is your best weapon. While mastering a EBU R-128 meter with custom color codes and reference level for the Momentary Loudness meter - and you're good to go.


If you'd like to talk shop, just PM me.
I mean, we're still talking about the REDD here, not metering devices.

[@midnight]

I try tto get my mixes around -6 rms

Would be too loud for me.

It's really challenging, I think most of the time I end up around -8.

The thing is... when comparing sounds, if one is accidently louder than the other, we always think that one sounds better.

Same thing when other people listen to your music. The closer you can get it to commercial rock/electronic/hiphop level volumes, the better they think it is, the more likely you are able to sell music, etc...

Of course, what your target is makes a difference too. My goal is for my music to end up in film, so I guess I don't really need to aim for loudness, but in order to get peoples attention, I feel as though I must. Establish myself first, by whatever means possible, and then retailor the sound once I am there.

[milosh_]

Same thing when other people listen to your music. The closer you can get it to commercial rock/electronic/hiphop level volumes, the better they think it is, the more likely you are able to sell music, etc...

Remember that your listener wrist turning up the volume is much more powerful than any limiter/maximiser out there cheers

[TreyM]

I try tto get my mixes around -6 rms

Would be too loud for me.

It's really challenging, I think most of the time I end up around -8.

The thing is... when comparing sounds, if one is accidently louder than the other, we always think that one sounds better.

Same thing when other people listen to your music. The closer you can get it to commercial rock/electronic/hiphop level volumes, the better they think it is, the more likely you are able to sell music, etc...

Of course, what your target is makes a difference too. My goal is for my music to end up in film, so I guess I don't really need to aim for loudness, but in order to get peoples attention, I feel as though I must. Establish myself first, by whatever means possible, and then retailor the sound once I am there.

-6 RMS is insanely loud! I can only think of a few albums that have even approached that. (Death Magnetic anyone?)

Honestly, -9 RMS is the absolute MAX I would ever want to go, but I prefer -12 -10 RMS on my stuff.

[kylen]

If you'd like to talk shop, just PM me.
I mean, we're still talking about the REDD here, not metering devices.

But now we've got someone telling midnight to turn up the volume to get from K-16 to K-6 so that was my original thought about stating the intended rms and K-level, you see the problem? Folks that like to listen louder can't just turn the volume up to listen to your nice A/B test without pushing it into a limiter (which will most likely change the tonal polish REDD has made). I was able to push it into K-14 without a limiter and your demo sounded nice. It's like listening to a live band at K-2 (w/high SPL) then listening to their CD and wondering why the band lost its edge.

But back on topic - it's a forum so no need to PM. Didn't mean to derail for no good reason.
Different discussion - you're right.
Thanks for the REDD samples.

[Mercado_Negro]

In my experience, when we need to go over -10dB RMS to achieve a commercial loudness it means we didn't mix the song properly. -10dB RMS is definitely loud enough, even for electronic music. There are songs with RMS around -8dB, even -6dB... yes, there are, but they all sound really bad, it doesn't matter if you mixed them and you think they are awesome (or your clients), they sound bad, period.

[kvaca]

In my experience, when we need to go over -10dB RMS to achieve a commercial loudness it means we didn't mix the song properly. -10dB RMS is definitely loud enough, even for electronic music. There are songs with RMS around -8dB, even -6dB... yes, there are, but they all sound really bad, it doesn't matter if you mixed them and you think they are awesome (or your clients), they sound bad, period.

it all depends WHERE people are listenig to their music...and its a question if most of the time are people listening music in ideal enviroment...

listening music mastered at -12dB RMS in noisy enviroment is THE SAME NONSENSE as listening -6dB RMS music at deadly quiet listening room

sometimes I wish to have even louder music especially on my mp3 when Im travelling somewhere,becouse another solution - using enclosed headphones - could be very dangerous...

sorry for OT

[Mercado_Negro]

In my experience, when we need to go over -10dB RMS to achieve a commercial loudness it means we didn't mix the song properly. -10dB RMS is definitely loud enough, even for electronic music. There are songs with RMS around -8dB, even -6dB... yes, there are, but they all sound really bad, it doesn't matter if you mixed them and you think they are awesome (or your clients), they sound bad, period.

it all depends WHERE people are listenig to their music...and its a question if most of the time are people listening music in ideal enviroment...

listening music mastered at -12dB RMS in noisy enviroment is THE SAME NONSENSE as listening -6dB RMS music at deadly quiet listening room

sometimes I wish to have even louder music especially on my mp3 when Im travelling somewhere,becouse another solution - using enclosed headphones - could be very dangerous...

sorry for OT

Yeah, sorry for the OT everyone, just wanted to add a quick comment about this.

kvaca, you're completely right about "loudness" and having a louder song for busy environments but this doesn't mean the song you're listening to doesn't sound bad. You chose to have a louder song and you're probably enjoying it but at -6dB RMS it doesn't sound good, that's all I meant.