Having fun and comparing "realism" of amp sims

[Hink]

sorry, no offense but I wont be listening to any of the clips...the truth is the sound of sims and sounding realistic is moot these days as that is in the hands of user...they are capable (most current sims anyhow)

That's not the issue for me though, it's all feel and for me (YMMV) I can't get that feel from any sim. I may end up using nothing but sims in the rest of my songs for the rest of my life, but for this ancient guitarist when it's comes to playing a real tube amp puts me in my best state of mind to play my best...it's like when I flip that standby switch it flips a switch in me too.

Yeah it's all in my head, likely a placebo effect but that doesn't matter much does it?

[enroe]

..., but for this ancient guitarist when it's comes to playing a real tube amp puts me in my best state of mind to play my best...it's like when I flip that standby switch it flips a switch in me too.

Yeah it's all in my head, likely a placebo effect but that doesn't matter much does it?

Oohhh, yeah,

but maybe it's only a matter of familiarization? Maybe one time you'll get this feeling also when you flip that "active"-button on the amp-sim GUI?

My grandfather - a writer - once said: "I will never never write on a computer-keyboard, because that is just not the right thing. I need the click-clack of a real typewriter for my creativity!"

[Hink]

..., but for this ancient guitarist when it's comes to playing a real tube amp puts me in my best state of mind to play my best...it's like when I flip that standby switch it flips a switch in me too.

Yeah it's all in my head, likely a placebo effect but that doesn't matter much does it?

Oohhh, yeah,

but maybe it's only a matter of familiarization? Maybe one time you'll get this feeling also when you flip that "active"-button on the amp-sim GUI?

My grandfather - a writer - once said: "I will never never write on a computer-keyboard, because that is just not the right thing. I need the click-clack of a real typewriter for my creativity!"

actually I have a pretty cool perspective on this because until 2010 I spent 14 1/2 years in a home where it was impossible for me to mic a cab...I've been playing 40 years, so more than 1/3 of my playing life and a lot more of "recording life" was done with sansamp, pods (which are sims) and pluggin sims. I'm sure you're right for many, turning on my DAW gets my creative juices flowing now so for those who have used sims much of their playing time I have no doubt they will experience that same feeling but with sims.

However when I moved and could mic a cab it all came rushing back, a sim will never be a tube amp or vice versa and imho that is great...I embrace them all, sims, amps, emulators (sansamp and such) finding a place for them in my world (albeit a very strange world )

So I'm not sure with time that will change, but it might because I might go back to playing through a sim one day and say "wow, I forgot how great this sim is" just like when I went back to amps. But as to the point about sound...there is no argument there imo...no one will say "if he used and an amp (or a sim for that matter) this song would have been better"...that's up to me and no one but me should know or be able to tell whether it was a sim or an amp

[GreyLion]

+1 for What Hink Said, from another elderly guitarist who fell in love with the sound that tubes make, more than four decades ago.

That said, I'm having a LOT of fun with HeadCase this past week or so.... Getting sounds that I haven't been able to get with any other sims.

If Kemper would come out with a Player version at half price -- most of us really aren't going to spend much, if any, time sampling amps -- I think it might be close enough for me to sell a couple of amps.

...Maybe not the 60's-era Deluxe Reverb, though... some things are just magic...

[alteregoxxx]

sorry, no offense but I wont be listening to any of the clips...the truth is the sound of sims and sounding realistic is moot these days as that is in the hands of user...they are capable (most current sims anyhow)

That's not the issue for me though, it's all feel and for me (YMMV) I can't get that feel from any sim. I may end up using nothing but sims in the rest of my songs for the rest of my life, but for this ancient guitarist when it's comes to playing a real tube amp puts me in my best state of mind to play my best...it's like when I flip that standby switch it flips a switch in me too.

Yeah it's all in my head, likely a placebo effect but that doesn't matter much does it?

Have you ever tried an old Yamaha DG80? It's a modeling amp (physical, not a plugin), but i can assure you that it sounds marvellous...and i have played on tubes amp like Twin, old Vox AC30 etc...try it and then we can talk about the modeling thing with another perspective

So, as i have already said, it's not a "tube thing"; the feel, the "thump", you perceive has a lot to do with the "loudness" involved...play your tube amp in a room and listen to that beautiful,big sound, than try to mic it and recording it, then listen to the recording: it will be a loooooooooooooooot different from the "live" sound....small, so small compared to live sound...no?
Mic'ed amp sound is a TOTALLY different thing than "live" amp sound...don't get fooled ignoring this fact...

[Amon1973]

The "E" seems to be the one I prefer now.

[Hink]

sorry, no offense but I wont be listening to any of the clips...the truth is the sound of sims and sounding realistic is moot these days as that is in the hands of user...they are capable (most current sims anyhow)

That's not the issue for me though, it's all feel and for me (YMMV) I can't get that feel from any sim. I may end up using nothing but sims in the rest of my songs for the rest of my life, but for this ancient guitarist when it's comes to playing a real tube amp puts me in my best state of mind to play my best...it's like when I flip that standby switch it flips a switch in me too.

Yeah it's all in my head, likely a placebo effect but that doesn't matter much does it?

Have you ever tried an old Yamaha DG80? It's a modeling amp (physical, not a plugin), but i can assure you that it sounds marvellous...and i have played on tubes amp like Twin, old Vox AC30 etc...try it and then we can talk about the modeling thing with another perspective

So, as i have already said, it's not a "tube thing"; the feel, the "thump", you perceive has a lot to do with the "loudness" involved...play your tube amp in a room and listen to that beautiful,big sound, than try to mic it and recording it, then listen to the recording: it will be a loooooooooooooooot different from the "live" sound....small, so small compared to live sound...no?
Mic'ed amp sound is a TOTALLY different thing than "live" amp sound...don't get fooled ignoring this fact...

I doubt I'll get fooled my friend...just because I said I could mic a cab does not mean I'm sitting in front of a typical speaker cab. I still live in an apartment but unlike the last place I dont live on one of the busiest streets in my city, next to a bridge over a river to the hospital. I had non stop sirens, harleys (in the summer), car stereos, jake brakes and on top of that when I lived there that intersection was listed as the second most dangerous in the state (this year it came in 3rd) with many accidents. My problem was more about keeping outside noise out and even an iso cab would not help, I was a few feet from the street.

Today I have 5 tube amps, two attenuators and I bought one of those jet city iso cabs which started out like this



now it looks like this with 3 choices of speakers, an eminence that came with, celestion g35s and an alnico jensen, 7 mics (3 large dia con, 1 small dia con, 2 dynamic one being of course a 57, and a ribbon mic)



many artists now use iso cabs on stage as well in clubs and such, I hear you on the live thing as I have made the same argument because there is a difference in live sound but that difference varies from venue to venue, right? My environment is very controlled and by design, I'm not getting the live sound, I'm getting the sound I want with the feel I crave.

Remember I think sims sound great, I dont need to try the yamaha (though I have played through one or two during my retail days I cannot recall exact how it sounded)...I'll go right to "you're right, it sounds great, it sounds real because it is real".

FWIW no track is ever recorded from my guitar without a dry track via a radial aby box for re-amping which includes the radial re-amper so I can re-amp through my amps or sims as many times as I want. I have AT3, GTR 3.5, VANDAL, GR4 and more for sims as well.

So hence my starting my post with (which was not a dig at you)...I have not ignored or overlooked much in building my rig...and I refuse to commit to anything...I embrace them all...tis a great time to be a guitar player

edit: I want to emphasize the point that I believe that sims sound real, no complaints at all in the sound of sims from me...I'm not now nor do I ever plan on knocking sims

[metalifuxx]

http://soundcloud.com/metalifuxx/sets/o ... inal-band/

Not to go OT, but about 1/4 of these songs use mic'd guitars in the whole song and another 1/4 use a combo of both ampsim and mic'd parts. Some use a real amp (recording line out) into an IR/cab sim. The rest are all complete ampsim.

And here is an experimental version of this song (Journey East) that is completely mic'd, and effects coming from pedals. I don't think there was any EQ or mixing, post vst effects, used as well. Kind of an experiment in tones and using mic position/amp EQ/pedals for natural EQ. Although just guitars/drums, and no bass. Using cheap M-Audio MobilePre preamp interface with Shure SM53 mic.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6185854/kvr%20s ... %20DOD.mp3

You might think my songs and mixes sound like sh!t. But can you really tell the difference between mic'd sh!t and ampsim sh!t in a full song/mix?

[hibidy]

Well, I dunno poop. I used to think I did, then I thought I didn't, then I thought it was getting better, and then realized NOT getting better.

I have no idea what good tone is. What sounds like ass to me is wonderful to others, what I like, nobody else does (well, a few people do)

[hibidy]

Ok guys, check this out!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.box.com/s/xsfinjs1p8ncyreo1x89

[hibidy]

[kvaca]

..play your tube amp in a room and listen to that beautiful,big sound, than try to mic it and recording it, then listen to the recording: it will be a loooooooooooooooot different from the "live" sound....small, so small compared to live sound...no?
Mic'ed amp sound is a TOTALLY different thing than "live" amp sound...don't get fooled ignoring this fact...

if you are talking about close micing - I absolutely agree!!

but theres another possibility - same as with drums you can get that bigger than life sound using good sounding room and more mics - for instance: 1 close dynamic + 2 condensers 3m distant and above cab + 1 room mic and this way get that "live" sound which cannot be obtained from ampsims by any means

[lfm]

if you are talking about close micing - I absolutely agree!!

but theres another possibility - same as with drums you can get that bigger than life sound using good sounding room and more mics - for instance: 1 close dynamic + 2 condensers 3m distant and above cab + 1 room mic and this way get that "live" sound which cannot be obtained from ampsims by any means

I like the way box models are handled in Izotope Trash, where you can at least place two mikes in arbitrary positions and create a space like miked cabinet.

There were also another product, forgot the name, where you simulate a full studio and which position each musician has etc. I've got a bookmark somewhere. It was a little more expensive as I remember.

But this in combination with amp sim you should be close to real ambient space around your guitar.

I just started experimenting with Waves IR-L, and several studio impulses. They mention in manual that full stereo needs 4 impulses loaded, but taking this from different rooms can create interesting spaces. Plenty to experiment with.

So in theory there is not limitation what sims can do.

[kvaca]

if you are talking about close micing - I absolutely agree!!

but theres another possibility - same as with drums you can get that bigger than life sound using good sounding room and more mics - for instance: 1 close dynamic + 2 condensers 3m distant and above cab + 1 room mic and this way get that "live" sound which cannot be obtained from ampsims by any means

I like the way box models are handled in Izotope Trash, where you can at least place two mikes in arbitrary positions and create a space like miked cabinet.

There were also another product, forgot the name, where you simulate a full studio and which position each musician has etc. I've got a bookmark somewhere. It was a little more expensive as I remember.

But this in combination with amp sim you should be close to real ambient space around your guitar.

I just started experimenting with Waves IR-L, and several studio impulses. They mention in manual that full stereo needs 4 impulses loaded, but taking this from different rooms can create interesting spaces. Plenty to experiment with.

So in theory there is not limitation what sims can do.

in theory...yes

well I ve spent about 10 years of experimenting with convolution, I got it immediately after sw version appeared /remember accoustic mirror?/...it can do very interesting filtered sounds which are usually impossible to obtain from normal cabinet micing or fx...but it simply cannot create the same sound as with well miced cabinet...the results are always on the duller side and it didt help if you add highs on eq - you only get harsh sound not not crisp, dynamic and lively sound...and it dont matter how many IRs you have used in combination - it didnt works the same way as combination of various mics at various distances...by no means you should expect the same bigger than life sound typical for using multimiced cabinet if you use various Redwirez IRs with similar micing configuration /the opposite is true-the more IRs you have used-the duller soud is/

I accept that the difference is so small that is not hearable in mix context most of the time, but if you listen to guitar only and you are about the most "live" sound possible, than there is no ampsim which can deliver the same depth and feel IMHO...

that saying I must emphasize that I still like plugins and ampsims very much, there were some long periods in my life in which I have prefered ampsims over real tube amps...but mostly becouse I didnt got nice sounding isolated room and a lot of preamps and mics to choose from like I got nowadays...

[Amberience]

Hey Hink,

I am *massively* interested in hearing some clips from that Jet City ISO cab you have. Got any hard-rock 'heavy' rhythm stuff I can hear?