Diversion 1.2 is out and goes on sale

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[liquidsound]

So what would be a fair price for a great software as Diversion or Zebra and what rules you apply to determine that fair price in this software market?
I think Diversion is just below its fair markets price IMO.
You should be looking at some other softwares that are even more expensive than this one by far and with less quality, but you like to be here instead.
For some of us that have a legitimate financial problems there are great free softwares, and not only in music.
I too I can't afford some of the high end programs but I rather pull myself up the ladder rather than pulling down the rest of the world.

You have a good profession and an important one in these times. Do your best and you will meet your golden opportunity.

If you recall, my original question asked whether this was made in Synthedit/synthmaker (ok yeah I got it wrong by saying synthmaster but that's unimportant). That question still hasn't been answered.

Were it coded purely in C++ and it was 40 hours + per week's work for an entire year, I would still only want to pay max $80 for it. Think about it, that's a big income for what is a relatively simple job.

If it's a synthedit creation, then i'd price it much lower, somewhere around $20. Remember, there's been ZERO outlay. I paid for all the hardware, including the bits that are responsible for sound quality.

As I've already said, music software is hugely over-priced and I mean hugely, so your reckoning that it's pitched fairly is not agreeable to me in the slightest.

And we certainly shouldn't be encouraging greedy prices for doing very little.

If its a simple job, you should do it yourself and save $80.
Explain to me where how did you arrived to $80...
For the rest of your comments regarding others, earning an income based on your Golden Rule is not even worth getting into.
Maybe you should become a money manager in a communist country, from where you probably have roots.

It is clear that you have an issue with Diversion's developer, as you did in the past.
Move on and be grateful you could afford your hardware and Live.

Liquid, if you read back, I actually say "it's a relatively simple job", meaning that it's not going to break his back, he's not going to get his hands dirty typing characters on a computer and there is almost zero outlay and hardware logistical problems to contend with - i.e. printing, marketing, case designs, PCB design, transport etc.

And enough of the inane sarcasm. Must I contend with that too whenever I make a post? Money manager in a communist country indeed!! (Though that did raise a smile).

look.
You made only few post since you joined KVR and are ONLY negative to Diversion.
Now, your points are that Diversion is too demanding on CPU, that it is too expensive,
that the developer is overpricing based on his efforts, which according to you are minimal and that the whole thing can be learned while traveling in the evaluators or perhaps while sleeping....
Then you say you are earning a living with your cold hands and earning close to nothing.
Then you know a little more than average about programming etc.
Then you seem to know the overall software industry financial markup and what it should be and what others should earn, all based on your part of not being able to succeed financially.
Then you are saying that only Diversion has these issues and all the others are fine....
And what is your business in wanting a VST that is Too costly, it's not working, it's overpriced, it's not made by NASA with quantum C++
BUT
That is so freaking fantastic, at a great price, made by a great working developer and that works flawlessly with most of the users, in not with all the users.

I'm beginning to feel sorry for you. Really.
How can we help you?

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[liquidsound]

Here's wishing everyone a prosperous life but not at the expense of others.

I also wish you realized this long ago because your posts were at the expense of the developer and Diversion.
Prosperous life to you too. You'll need it, and for all of us as well.

[GMoneh]

Based on the comparison to my job.

I am a trained horticulturalist. It took me several years, lots of reading and mucho hard graft out in the real world.

I can expect an average wage of approximately £20k per year.

C++ can be learnt in under a year, though I imagine it takes longer than that to get good, however, it's an indoor occupation and i'm not even sure Diversion was coded in C++. It may even be a hobbyist, nobody has answered my original question.

My job is definitely harder than that of a coder and infinitely more difficult than that of a synthmaker/synthedit hobbyist.

Going on sales of 1000 units at $169 with no overheads along the lines of manufacturing/transport etc. This item will raise $169000. It's quite likely that it will sell far more than that.

I have many overheads and my hands get cold in the winter months. Days are long in the summer and I am physically tired at the end of each day.

So yes, i'll stick to my guns. Software is hugely over-priced.

Man, I usually don't participate in threads like this, but the ignorance displayed about the software engineering profession and music software in particular is outstanding...
C++ can be learnt in under a year? Yes, maybe... do you think that's all you need to develop a synth like Diversion? The DSP knowledge alone will take you a lifetime to master... I have been coding C++ for 20 years and I wouldn't be able to create a synth like Diversion. If anything, music software is hugely underpriced for what it does. If you can or cannot afford it that's another matter, but don't belittle the people who create it.
And even though I have zero knowledge about the internals of Diversion, let me try to answer your question. Based on the fact that Diversion provides both 32 and 64 bits versions, I think proves that it's not a SynthEdit/Synthmaker product (not that there's anything wrong with those either, nor would it be worth $20 if it were).

Your comparison of digging a hole and putting seeds in it is roughly the same as me claiming a "hello world" exercise is good enough to get a job coding for microsoft.

I think you missed the point of Andy's comment... that's precisely what you're saying, that writing a software synthesizer is almost analogous to writing a Hello World application. He was not belittling the horticulturist profession, on the contrary.
Oh, and by the way, the fact that you mention that you don't need to pay for the software because your hardware is what makes things sound good or not shows how much you understand of what a software synthesizer really does... perhaps that's why you think it's worth $20...

[ZenPunkHippy]

Well said GMoneh.

Anyway, if we could get back on topic for a moment ... have now tried Diversion and it sounds excellent. The presets are really quite stunning.

My question about the intended Mac port from a couple pages back might be missed so asking again - will the Mac version be a paid update from 1.2 (along with a new Win version) or a free update?

Peace,
Andy.

[Bobbotov]

Really, the price of anything is based on what the market will bear. The intro sale price of $80 seemed quite fair to me. If ultimately the regular full price is overpriced, sales will suffer and then adjustments will have to be made to lower the price through deals or other permanent means. It is an art not a science.

Another aspect of pricing for developers is offsetting the ripoffs through warez and torrents and other means of piracy. As an example, maybe for every one sold legitimately, three are ripped off. With some synths it could be worse. A lot worse. That is the sad reality of the software business depending on the security measures but even with stringent methods there is no guarantee the product will not be ripped off ultimately killing revenue to the developer.

It make take a year or more to develop a complex synth, create the patches, and beta test, etc. In the interim no income is forthcoming. It is a gamble but hard work nevertheless. I doubt the critic knows exactly how many synths are actually sold for any developer. I have been doing this for a few years and numbers like a 1000 or more sold is ideal. But there are so many options available to people the market is glutted with choices.At M-RGT we know we are dealing with a very small subset of experimental musicians and that is okay as we love what we do, have other sources of income but do it anyway 'cause we believe in what we are doing. We do not sell in the thousands of units ever. But that is not a deterrent. Companies like Spectrasonics have much higher overhead and much longer development times. They also have larger staffs to contend with. At M-RGT it is just two of us who are dedicated in what we do.

As far as CPU usage is concerned there are many variables as the synth has to have some minimum requirements to function at all. There are many older OS/computer systems out there and many cutting edge systems so CPU usage will vary accordingly. There are also RAM issues and sound card and ASIO issues that affect optimal performance. Developers try to find a happy medium and sometime that means compromise and sometimes it means pushing the envelope to the dismay of some users. The bottom line with any software is: does it do what you want and is it something you need. If so rationalizing the price is simple - if you have to have it you will pay or you will look for special incentive sales or the second hand market if/whenever possible.

Unless you have actually gone through the process of developing a synth from scratch with any technology as a basis I think criticism is just Monday morning quarterbacking. But to criticize a product before even demoing it seems to be a little unfair and not knowing what goes into making a synth even more so.

Just my 2 cents.

[contrary]

Really, the price of anything is based on what the market will bear.

Yes ; and a softsynth developer also has to deal with the errosion of that equasion caused by the freehadist......

Unless you have actually gone through the process of developing a synth from scratch with any technology as a basis I think criticism is just Monday morning quarterbacking.

Indeed,
well said

I'm no expert , but from a purely observational point if view , I shake my head every time ( and mostly the entire time!) I instantiate SURGE...

To think that this fellow couldn't just rest on his laurels and work part time after all the toil of creating that beauty is pretty scary from an Intellectual property point of view ... Not real inspiring , NOT like you'll become an automatic rich rock star coding soft synths! Maybe a few like Lennar hit the jack pot but it seems like a fairly tough row to hoe for the rest . Good luck and a good shot of prosperity to the father of DIVERSION !!! Love the clairity of the top end of this synth !

I hope he just getting a light chuckle out of all this " All you need is a year or so " any joe could do it smack

[Bobbotov]

I hope Lennar did well but i I think he got ripped off big time also. It can be very disheartening and some just call it quits. Can you blame them?

[Crackbaby]

Darkest = mrperryx if you havn't figured that out yet :p Pathetic troll..

[sches]

Sorry guys for the late reply, yesterday I was out of here.

On a more positive note!

It's great to see a Mac version is planned. Will purchasing a Windows license now mean the Mac version is "free" when it's released, or will that be a paid upgrade?

Peace,
Andy.

Hey Andy, Mac version is free for existing Windows version users, one buy for getting all versions. Really pleasant for me that you are checking the plugin.

Darkest, the plugin coded in C++, if it makes any sense for you. Developer's tools are not a good metric for measuring efforts put in making something. It's fair for everything you are creating, not only plugins. As a proof that the plugin isn't a SynthMaker project you could check our Mac version which will be available in 2-3 weeks. As far as I remember it's not possible to port SynthMaker's plugin to Mac.

BTW, I don't think that SynthMaker is something easy and doesn't require many efforts for making something great in there. C++ is a very cool thing, but it's not the most difficult part in synth development. If you'd ask me, the hardest things during development were synth's architecture, DSP algorithms and consistent GUI design, while C++ coding was plain and pleasant. These three tasks always stand before developer, no matter which platform chosen.

And finally, probably you won't believe, but single devs like me are NOT SELLING plugins on 1000 sales scale. "160 * 1000 = $$$" isn't about us.

Bobbotov, well said, absolutely agree, thanks for great post.

[ZenPunkHippy]

Mac version is free for existing Windows version users, one buy for getting all versions. Really pleasant for me that you are checking the plugin.

That's great, thanks for the info - I really wasn't expecting the Mac port to be ready so soon.

It was Col (biomechanoid) who prompted me to try Diversion today - he is also looking forward to the Mac version

Peace,
Andy.

[ThomasHelzle]

Anyway, surely sound quality is mostly dependant on my D/A converters and how they interact with the code. None of my software suppliers can expect a premium charge for the hardware i've paid for.

...on noticing its internal sample rate was set at 22050, changing this to 44.1 fixed the problem.

NEXT!!!



Wow, isn't the human being the most extended and amazing beta-test ever?

Cheers,

Tom

P.S. beware of the horticulturalist, he has cold hands...

[JoeCat]

As a proof that the plugin isn't a SynthMaker project you could check our Mac version which will be available in 2-3 weeks.

(and as a software developer - C++ mainly - +1 to virtually all of the above comments)