KVR Audio

polaris20 · Post by **polaris20** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:03 pm

The problem with Windows 8 tablets in my experience (and yes, I've actually used a couple, owned one) is that once you leave the Metro interface, the experience flat out sucks.

Why?

Because applications aren't designed for touch, and that makes for a very frustrating experience. What's the point of a touch interface if the UI itself isn't designed for it? You might as well buy a nice ultrabook and call it a day.

Applications I tried, including Office 2013, Photoshop, Reaper, and Studio One all were borderline unusable, due the UI being optimized (understandably so) for a mouse, not the larger targets required for a finger.

It's got nothing to do with one's fanboyism of Apple vs. MS. I'd feel EXACTLY the same way if there was such a thing as an OS X tablet.

I don't think a tablet needs to be a full computer. It's a $500 device, not $1000+. IMO, they're two separate experiences, and two separate uses.

I don't need to do full productions on a tablet, nor would I desire to. I just use it as a sketchpad, and the iPad does that admirably.

I can either buy an iPad+Mac Mini for $1100, or I can buy a Surface Pro for $1000. The problem with the latter is going to be the same UI as any Win8 tablet, coupled with the horrendous (for a tablet) battery life. Sure, it's subjective, but for now I'll pick the Mini+iPad every time.

Substitute Mini for midrange computer of your choice, if you so desire.

If I was told I can only have one device, and the choices are Surface Pro (or other x86 Win8 tablet), an iPad, or a regular laptop, the choice would still be regular laptop.

4damind · Post by **4damind** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:26 pm

Important for the success is, how audio applications are usable on this touch screens. I remember a test with some of the big touch screens (Acer T232HL) and Cubase 7 and Studio One on Windows 8. None of this DAWs are optimized for touch screens and sometimes "easy" things like opening the mixer (F3 in Cubase) is not so easy but handling of inserts, plug-in slots etc. works nice with touch and the new Cubase 7 mixer console. Stuff like copy & paste needs the screen keyboard etc.

For daily usage I don't think that this is something people will like... but if some of the big developers (Steinberg, Presonus) optimize some stuff for touch screens, I think we have some very, very strong device with the Surface Pro for audio applications.
The other thing is of course the usage as a controller with some specialized apps. But this needs not the power of the Surface Pro and other tablets like the iPad always having apps for such stuff and are daily used by a lot of people.

So IMO the Surface Pro has a lot potential to be a game changer. But it needs some applications which can be easy used without keyboard/mouse.
If Microsoft is interested to push the Surface Pro they should change something with the price (this worked very well with the XBox and could work the same with the Surface tablets).

polaris20 · Post by **polaris20** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:36 pm

4damind wrote:Important for the success is, how audio applications are usable on this touch screens. I remember a test with some of the big touch screens (Acer T232HL) and Cubase 7 and Studio One on Windows 8. None of this DAWs are optimized for touch screens and sometimes "easy" things like opening the mixer (F3 in Cubase) is not so easy but handling of inserts, plug-in slots etc. works nice with touch and the new Cubase 7 mixer console. Stuff like copy & paste needs the screen keyboard etc.

For daily usage I don't think that this is something people will like... but if some of the big developers (Steinberg, Presonus) optimize some stuff for touch screens, I think we have some very, very strong device with the Surface Pro for audio applications.
The other thing is of course the usage as a controller with some specialized apps. But this needs not the power of the Surface Pro and other tablets like the iPad always having apps for such stuff and are daily used by a lot of people.

So IMO the Surface Pro has a lot potential to be a game changer. But it needs some applications which can be easy used without keyboard/mouse.
If Microsoft is interested to push the Surface Pro they should change something with the price (this worked very well with the XBox and could work the same with the Surface tablets).

Agree completely. If they could get me a 1.5 pound tablet with 10hours battery life, AND apps designed for touch (perhaps an installer could have a switchable UI for touch vs. desktop?) then I would most definitely go that route for a single device.

Gonga · Post by **Gonga** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:29 pm

Surface Pro is an early device of its type - a type that will soon be THE norm. But right now, it's gonna be for early adopters until more applications are written to take advantage of touch.

Just for the record, the Surface Pro has the most advanced touch screen on the market - it totally eclipses the iPad for serious art folks. People who haven't been able to afford a Wacom Cintiq will be all over the Surface, which is not only an incredible 10-point multitouch that includes a really great stylus, but also a tablet, a laptop, and has the fastest Windows ever. Oh, and the touch interface now will be the same one you use on your desktop, tablet and your phone too...

It's the dawn of a new day

btw I have Windows 8 on a desktop and a laptop. It's a love/hate relationship

monsterism · Post by **monsterism** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:51 pm

I'ma designer and its why I'm interested in the pro, already have a 10.1 note but have to check the stylus out on the pro. I really doubt its the most advanced, the cintiq still holds that crown but I hear it utilises the same tech as the 10.1 note but with a different name because how the screen is produced.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:53 pm

Wormhelmet wrote: fmr wrote:
I'm not a fan of "apps", and I find all this hype on "i"Things a joke. I would say that someone serious about what he/she wants to do will need a full computer, and a full DAW.

The argument that one may feel "overwhelming" is a joke in itself. If people know what to do, how to do it and what they want to do, they cannot feel overwhelm, no matter what they use.

However, a sheet of paper and a pencil may be enough - and they come almost for free
----
Fernando (FMR)"

I was going to respond in that thread to this mentality on who is a serious musician with an app or not, but let it pass. This time I felt like pointing it out that clearly there are those biased against platform or apps in general for a means to make professional sounding music.

Did you read the article in the link? Because it was an answer to thwe questions raised by that article.
So, I said that "The argument that one may feel "overwhelming" is a joke in itself. If people know what to do, how to do it and what they want to do, they cannot feel overwhelm, no matter what they use."
I would say that again. That argument is a joke. I carefully started to say what are my opinions on the subject, so that people knew I am "biased" as you say. But I also said that you can achieve good results with only pencil and paper - you would not get simpler than that.

Regarding the Surface Pro, I didn't say that I changed my mind, much less because it is Microsoft (why would I?). I said I am reexamining my position because it can work both ways (means - using fully developed applications), therefore, may be the best of both worlds (or may have a foot in each place). Anyway, I read some enlightening opinions form people that already tried I, so, it's good, so far.

The point that currently applications are not ready to work only by touch commands is serious though - using a mouse and probably a keyboard would be mandatory to have things done.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:10 pm

monsterism wrote:I'ma designer and its why I'm interested in the pro, already have a 10.1 note but have to check the stylus out on the pro. I really doubt its the most advanced, the cintiq still holds that crown but I hear it utilises the same tech as the 10.1 note but with a different name because how the screen is produced.

The cintiq has the advantage of the pressure sensing and the stylus etc, but its not multitouch. if someone brings out even a half-decent pressure sensitive stylus for Surface then...?

monsterism · Post by **monsterism** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:39 pm

But you don't need multi touch for painting, or designing in illustrator so its pointless wacom implementing it.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:06 pm

monsterism wrote:But you don't need multi touch for painting, or designing in illustrator so its pointless wacom implementing it.

'not needed' isnt actually the same as 'pointless'. we have people who use cintiq's with software like maya and zbrush, and while you dont 'need' it, a good multitouch implementation would be incredibly useful in some circumstances. so quite far from 'pointless'. in fact, you could find utility for it in photoshop, painter and probably illustrator.

i'd think its been proven that multitouch has utility in plenty of circumstances that its not actually 'needed' in fact. you dont need a cintiq to paint or design in illustrator in the first place, did that make it 'pointless to implement'?

monsterism · Post by **monsterism** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:14 pm

I use zbrush alot at work, personaly I don't feel the need for it but I understand your comments.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:02 am

In his "impressions" review, David Pogue ended writing: "... it looks as if the Surface Pro is, conceptually and practically, a home run. For thousands of people, it will be an ideal mobile companion. It will mean the end of the daily question: Hmm, should I take my laptop or my iPad?"
That's exactly what atracts me in this concept. It's both.

Invisiblesupermonkey · Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:14 pm

I had a c64 back in the day. My friend had a spectrum 48k. Lots of banter and arguments. Ultimately pointless. I enjoyed the graphical (ha!) power of the commodore he loved the creativity of the speccy.

Lots of blah blah blah above gentlemen interspersed with some nuggets of wisdom... Feel free to decide for yourself if your posts are blah or nuggets

peter_r80 · Post by **peter_r80** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:38 am

It will mean the end of the daily question: Hmm, should I take my laptop or my iPad?"
That's exactly what atracts me in this concept. It's both.

+1

It will be interesting to see what the big Windows DAW and VSTi companies do with RT and 8 Pro for tablets.

ImageLine and Cakewalk are making inroads already with Windows and touch. Not sure if NI will do anything. They have a vested interest in their own hardware. Ditto Ableton.

I have $3-4k of software and hardware in Windows land that I'd like to use on a device like a tablet. I could accept UI compromises and wait for the developers to catch up and upgrade then. Oh yeah - NONE of it works with the iPad. This means I would re-buy it all and lug around a powered hub to use with iPad.

A simple Win 8 Pro (x86 not RT) DAW that effectively uses whatever touch capability Win 8 Pro can deliver AND wraps VST(i) controls into a touch friendly UI would be a product I'd look seriously at. Sensomusic maybe? Cockos' next step? Cakewalk or Imageline?

iOS and iPads can stay as they are: Capable, limited, closed. They do what they do and do it well. They just don't work with any of my current investments so that's a big negative (for me) when compared to a Win 8 Pro tablet. Still iPads are very tempting.

No one should be hating on Windows 8 tablets. Choices are great and competition spurs innovation. We should be cheering this on in the hope that it kicks Google into a higher gear with Android and forces Apple to open up a bit more. OSXI - who knows what it'll bring to the table.

My laptop is 3.5 years old, I didn't get an iPad (soo close) so a Win8 Pro tablet is looking REAL nice.

Peter

mod4 · Post by **mod4** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:20 am

I have a motion tablet with wacom pen input win vista , presonus studio one. It works well pen input is great for eq drawing, drag and drop fx. After a while the shine wears off and you will go back to hardware sliders and buttons.

I looked at getting a surface pro but whats the point if you mainly use it on a desktop anyway, its not cheap and ssd disk so dont expect a long life after churning that ssd with daw audio. You could use external disk for daw audio but that just takes away the portability.

I will stick to a laptop and an os i know works, use your head not your heart, always read the pdf manual and research products online / read reviews.

Remember that christmas present you got with shiny wrapping paper, when you opened it up and realised, this is not what i wanted. Merry Christmas.

Gonga · Post by **Gonga** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:41 am

monsterism wrote:I'ma designer and its why I'm interested in the pro, already have a 10.1 note but have to check the stylus out on the pro. I really doubt its the most advanced, the cintiq still holds that crown but I hear it utilises the same tech as the 10.1 note but with a different name because how the screen is produced.

I agree, I meant it was the most advanced tablet screen.

I'm not a fanboi of Windows 8 by any means, I have a love/hate relationship with my two Win8 machines, and especially my Logitech wireless touchpad, which should be a great way to have Win8 on ur machine but is just too imprecise...

If anyone is considering Win8, I recommend a quality touchscreen, or at least a very large, quality Synaptics touchpad.

I like the Surface Pro, but though it's one of the most powerful tablets, it's still underpowered by my standards. It doesn't have enough ports either (no HDMI)!

Surface Pro was presented physically at CES. Comments, anyone?