KVR Audio

niktu · Post by **niktu** » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:59 am

Hi all.

I've taken on a sample project where by I'm sampling the bejesus out of some of my analog synths. I tend to be one of those anal-retentive types who likes things as 'perfect' as possible with my samples.

I have some DCO synths which are fairly accurate pitch-wise. They're not perfectly in tune according to my tuners but still very accurate. Then I've got some VCO synths that tend to go out of tune every 20 mins or so and rarely stay in tune with itself over a 6-7 octave range when midi-cv'd up.

Just wondering what some of the pro & not-so-pro peeps are using to batch-pitch-correct their samples - if at all. Or how you tackle the issue of tuning when sampling old analog synths.

I'm using Keymap Pro & Auto Sampler for the instrument creation and I'm just not that happy with the results from the built in pitch correction algorithm in KMP. I've been googling all day for alternatives and just ended up confused. It seems pitch correction is something of a dark-art and I'm not entirely sure what they're doing to the integrity of my, ahem, 'perfect' samples. And most pitch-correction software is geared towards vocal treatment and formant shaping. Bah!

I'm on a Mac and from my research, Wavelab 7 is looking like it, with built in pitch correction and a batch-processing environment.

Any suggestions? Or thoughts on the approach? Do you think I should just avoid the auto-tuning-process by manually tuning & re-tuning as I sample? Or is that just idealistic and impractical?

Anyway, would love to hear your perspectives.

Cheers gang.

Sasja · Post by **Sasja** » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:19 am

I would say: Melodyne. But you probably figured this one.

It's a good question. Actually, I never had correct pitch for samples. I made sure my instruments are constantly in tune when I record each note. If it goes off I tune the instrument and go on. It's always best to record things in the best possible state rather than do processing afterwards imho.

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:16 pm

niktu wrote:how you tackle the issue of tuning when sampling old analog synths.

Simple: make sure whatever you sample is in perfect pitch before you hit the Record button. Your synth has a "tune" knob, not??

Otherwise the most obvious place to correct it, is when you arrange the samples for the library. Then you can adjust tuning as well, still using the original sample. I'd strongly advise against Melodyne and simular pitch correction techniques.

BTW: sounds like your Midi->CV unit is the cause of this. Maybe it can be calibrated?

niktu · Post by **niktu** » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:25 pm

Thanks for the replies.

BertKoor, I'm inclined to agree with you however some instruments are just too darn temperamental and would benefit from some outside help. I have an EHX Mini Synth which I tried sampling. The tuning between notes can be noticeably out, let alone octaves. The tuning slider on it isn't smooth and is not easy to calibrate with any precision. I still need to find a digital tuning solution if I want the sound but not the erratic tuning.

Thanks for your suggestion too, Sasja. Yes, I know all about Melodyne and a string of others. I really need something that can batch process and not designed specifically for vocal processing.

I'm sampling around 30 notes per layer with 3 round robins. As a precaution, I sample 5 round robins (and discard 2). I need to (ideally) tune 150 files in one hit and then load them into Keymap Pro to create the instrument. And that's just for one instrument.

I don't want something that alters the pitch from microsecond to microsecond as it will alter the nuance within the sample. I don't want that. I just want something that will analyse and adjust the whole file equally up or down by a few cents.

I want to have the samples completely tuned before it goes into the sample player too.

I bought a few synth libraries to see what they're doing. Interestingly Wave Alchemy's Pro II Kontakt instrument has a "tuned" option and an "untuned" option. I'd be curious to know what they did for their tuned version.

That Mini Synth really is a pig to sample in tune. I might try out a couple of pitch-correction plugs straight into Keymap Pro as the host. Might be all I need (hopefully).

Sounds like peeps are just getting their synths as in tune as possible without worrying about a few cents here and there. Cool. Anyone else?

niktu · Post by **niktu** » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:42 pm

Sorry for the double post.

Just had a look at the "irony of sampling" thread with some good arguments against 'perfect samples'.

Had to laugh.

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:50 am

When all's said and done, there's no alternative...

Get it right at source or tune each sample by hand.

Batch process? Nah ... at least not without artefacts.

Sorry but sampling (to do the job properly) is bloody hard work and time consuming and there's no getting round that.

Cheers,

Stephen

sifon · Post by **sifon** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:19 pm

Hi, have you maybe found a solution in the meanwhile? I'm having the same issue, and would like to fix it with some batch pitch correcting (with analysis)

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:25 pm

The only way imho is to make sure what you sample is in tune in the first place. I would hate to spend hours recording a synth and then have to start re-tuning every note. Will drive you mad eventually.

wave alchemy · Post by **wave alchemy** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:16 pm

niktu wrote:I bought a few synth libraries to see what they're doing. Interestingly Wave Alchemy's Pro II Kontakt instrument has a "tuned" option and an "untuned" option. I'd be curious to know what they did for their tuned version.

Hi,

You are correct, we do indeed offer both a "tuned" and "un-tuned" option for the default Pro 11 instrument patch.

It all depends on exactly what you are trying to achieve with the instrument. With Pro II we have the "raw osc" page which allows one to mix together multiple raw oscillators multisampled from osc1 and osc2 of a Pro One synthesizer.

Most older analogue synths will be slightly inconsistent in pitch, especially over a 5 octave range. We decided to capture this inconsistency for in Pro II for various reasons.

We also decided to offer a "tuned" NKI instrument. With this patch we slightly tuned each and every multi-sample individually within Kontakt to obtain a better pitch consistency accross the 5 octave range.

I am personally not aware of any batch converter that can do this. I prefer to do this type of editing work by hand, always, to ensure that everything is how we want it to be.

I agree with Stephen 100% when he says:

"Sorry but sampling (to do the job properly) is bloody hard work and time consuming and there's no getting round that"

synthmagic · Post by **synthmagic** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:39 pm

hollowsun wrote: Get it right at source or tune each sample by hand.

^^^^^^This.

digidennis · Post by **digidennis** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:05 pm

Do it with voltage correction software like silent way or volta ( if your synthesizer has cv input that is )
Better (perfect?) tuning over a wider range

niktu · Post by **niktu** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:02 pm

Thx hugely for your responses.

Yes, get it right at the source is always good advice and yes, I also agree that there's no getting around the hard work required either.

It's mostly just for the occassionally stubborn synths (like my EHX Minisynth) or cv synths that don't track that well over 5 or more octaves.

I don't mind Digidennis' solution either (voltage correction software) but I have an RME interface which I don't think has the right kind of outputs for Volta or Silent Way, though I haven't fully exhausted that possibility yet. More research & consideration required perhaps.

I haven't yet found a solution but have (tentatively) decided to take a more 'less-than-perfect' approach for the time being.

I'm working on a DCO synth (JX10) right now and the tuning isn't too bad. I think I just want to keep the slight tuning & amplitude nuance between notes. The JX10 just doesn't scream out in need of post-processing but others can. I might just buy Wavelab if/when I face a similar situation to the Wave Alchemy Pro One example (and thankyou WA for your input). I'm trying to find a way to have the (tricky) samples tuned before it reaches Kontakt.

BTW, I tried that Melda Tuner plug (free) with disasterous results. But I didn't persevere with different settings so in truth, I might have set it up incorrectly. But I didn't care at that stage. I just got rid of it.

So for me, so far, the solution is:
1. Get the synth as in-tune as possible before recording (always #1)
2. Decide if the tuning fluctauations between notes and over a range could be considred 'nuance' or just plain 'out'.
3. If deemed too out-of-tune, try Wavelab 7 - as there's nothing else on a Mac that I'm aware of, that will tune a lot of samples at once.

That's where I'm at right now.

tuning analog synth samples