Linux...anybody using it?

Audio Plugin Hosts and other audio software applications discussion
Post Reply New Topic
RELATED
PRODUCTS

Post

pljones wrote:If you just need JACK to fix some problem in your workflow, just add JACK. It runs happily on Windows and OSX and brings almost all its advantages. Without bringing in the disadvantages of a Linux audio solution. So you really can't use it as a justification on its own for saying Linux makes a problem easier to solve.
You didn't say this previously; this is a good point, and certainly one I'll concede on, although only half of Jack's advantages are actually brought (the Jack Transport is available, but unused by apps not specifically designed to use Jack); it allows Windows and OS X to use the audio-redirection capabilities with no problems, and if that's all you need, then you're absolutely right, you don't need Linux. I previously stated as much: if you have a workflow that works for you, then use it, and don't worry about Linux.

Linux's biggest advantage is price. For the cost of some sweat equity in preparing the system, you can have a lot of tools at your disposal without the financial costs involved in the (unrestricted and legal) DAW+synths/samplers+plugins, which can then be spent on physical gear instead.

The other advantage is entirely for people like me, who do not want to use Windows or Mac. Just as you are invested in your system and workflow, so are we. I'll admit, part of the reason I advocate Linux is to encourage use of the platform, which will encourage developers to release the tools on the platform, ultimately meaning that it will be successful. But I seriously don't think it's as bad as you make it, because I've worked with it for a long time. I've got the tools, and I'm using them. With no crashing. Granted, I don't have the musical skills you probably do, and likely never will, but there's more to audio than just music.
Lampros Liontos (aka. Reteo Varala)

The Penguin Producer - Tips, tricks and techniques for producing multimedia using the Linux operating system.

Post

ret wrote: It was 0.0000000001% when I was last time this heavily involved with this same discussion and it will be the same 0.0000000001% next time in 2018. How do I know?

Well. It is very simple:

Every single one of those people I had this same conversation about five years ago have said goodbye for linux audio and are now using either mac or windows. Many of them were on the developer side of the table and just kept telling how brilliant Jack and linux are for musicians. Needless to mention they didn't listen to us users and those projects are now dead and gone.

So when I read all this it seems that here we are five years later and same nonsense goes on. Only the preaching people have changed.
You're almost right... There's much wrong with Ardour, Jack, and most other Linux audio software, but there's nothing wrong with Linux or ALSA. Hell, Google runs on 100% Linux servers(like 90% of the internet does), if that doesn't scream "performance and reliability", I don't know what does.

I'd be willing to wager that my project can overtake Ardour, etc... in marketshare and start to pick up "normal users" in the next year or 2, solely because it's free, has no DRM whatsoever, it's stable, and it doesn't rely on being wired up to 50 other applications in Jack just to be useful. That, and I'm the currently only actual DSP developer in Linux, the other plugin developers are just creating incestual plugins out of the code to TAP and Zyn, and/or they only write EQ and compressor plugins(synths&&samplers==much_harder)... I have some Ableton-like live/looping features planned this year, I expect that to be the big turning point for many potential users...

Post

pljones wrote:
reteo wrote:Once again, I'd like to point out that you're right. Linux isn't the easy solution. It's absolutely not simple to use. In order to really make use of Linux for audio, you need to get the hang of audio routing, and understand how different processing affects a sound wave. But simplicity is not the reason to use Linux for audio.

The base flexibility of the Jack platform, along with the modular nature of its tools, make Linux the toolkit for advanced use-cases, allowing for things that cannot be done elsewhere without considerable expense. It's meant for heavy manipulation of sound in ways that plugin writers might not have considered. It's a hell of a lot easier than actually WRITING a plugin, that's for sure.
And once again I'll point out there's absolutely no need for Linux in a JACK-based solution to a problem. If you just need JACK to fix some problem in your workflow, just add JACK. It runs happily on Windows and OSX and brings almost all its advantages. Without bringing in the disadvantages of a Linux audio solution. So you really can't use it as a justification on its own for saying Linux makes a problem easier to solve.
Hi, can you launch executables, then using win-jack for example, connecting
FM8 to Guitar Rig...recording the output in Audacity? This would be enjoyable,
and possibly lighter on system resources than running a DAW with
FM8 and Guitar Rig plugins.
Cheers

Post

jeffh wrote: I'd be willing to wager that my project can...
The Ray-V/Wav-V/Euphoria instruments have a very nice gui,
as well as the rest of the interface. Colors that don't clash,
with some pleasant variations.

I think the slings and arrows portion of the product description
will not inspire the curious. Not that I'm a marketing guru,
but being invited to a party, beats being invited 'to the fray'.

Having a totally positive, upbeat presentation is inviting good luck.
Imagine a first date where the girl started out by bashing her Ex for
a half hour, then bragged the next 30 minutes of her awesomeness,
but never got around to, 'Hey, let's go to my place!' :wink:
Cheers

Post

glokraw wrote:
jeffh wrote: The Ray-V/Wav-V/Euphoria instruments have a very nice gui,
as well as the rest of the interface. Colors that don't clash,
with some pleasant variations.
Thank you very much...
glokraw wrote: I think the slings and arrows portion of the product description
will not inspire the curious. Not that I'm a marketing guru,
but being invited to a party, beats being invited 'to the fray'.

Having a totally positive, upbeat presentation is inviting good luck.
Imagine a first date where the girl started out by bashing her Ex for
a half hour, then bragged the next 30 minutes of her awesomeness,
but never got around to, 'Hey, let's go to my place!' :wink:
Cheers
Actually, imagine it more like this: Everybody at the party has already met my ex and doesn't like her, and has no idea that we're completely separated, have nothing to do with each other, and that I hate her guts. I have no chance of getting laid unless I can convince everybody that I'm no longer with her, and that I'm completely against everything she stands for.

So, to unravel the TMI of this analogy:

1. I'm aiming to attract Windows users to PyDAW, not the same 20 people who actually use Linux for audio. "Growing the pie", in economic terms...
2. Windows users won't give me a chance if they think I'm just more of the same they've already experienced as "Linux audio", which the average user (like ret) associate with "utter crap".
3. I'm openly at war with the KX Studio dude, here's a fine example of why:

https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/broken

He asked me to port my plugins to LV2 so they could be used in Ardour3, to which I replied "Ardour3 sucks, I refuse to waste my time supporting a DAW that will just crash anyways. Why would I want my plugins to be blamed for Ardour's poor MIDI support and crashes, and tarnish my reputation for (being the only one with) rock-solid, stable Linux audio applications?"

So then, after I had already asked him not to package PyDAW or it's plugins with KX Studio(at all, ever), he responds by packaging it anyways and putting it in the "broken" PPA. Because the plugins allegedly "crash several hosts"(but not my host or the official reference DSSI host, aka the 2 that matter). Of course, anybody who has been a witness to the magnificent stability(ROFL) of the long-time Linux plugin hosts, and then has spent 5 or more minutes with PyDAW to witness it not crashing(like the others), realizes that he's just taking a swipe at me with that... :D

But Euphoria has been widely recognized as the only credible alternative to Kontakt in Linux(not a clone by any means, but the only viable modular sampler plugin), and he's highly upset that I won't waste my time entering into the crap-fest that is his Jack/LV2-centric ecosystem... So, we engage in these covert PR wars against each other, but it's going to favor me in the end, because any PR is good PR when you're product actually works, unlike his...

Post

glokraw wrote:Hi, can you launch executables, then using win-jack for example, connecting
FM8 to Guitar Rig...recording the output in Audacity? This would be enjoyable,
and possibly lighter on system resources than running a DAW with
FM8 and Guitar Rig plugins.
Cheers
Jack is can route ASIO audio through ASIO4all, although if I recall correctly, it cannot route MIDI. Audacity has direct support for Jack, although I'm not sure how well it works in Windows.
Lampros Liontos (aka. Reteo Varala)

The Penguin Producer - Tips, tricks and techniques for producing multimedia using the Linux operating system.

Post

reteo wrote: Linux's biggest advantage is price. For the cost of some sweat equity in preparing the system, you can have a lot of tools at your disposal without the financial costs involved in the (unrestricted and legal) DAW+synths/samplers+plugins, which can then be spent on physical gear instead.
Yes and no. Most people don't pay anything for Windows as it comes with the computer and don't shoot the messenger but you can get a freeware or atleast very cheap windows studio linux users can only dream of. In most cases you need to buy a soundcard and you can get a very nice version of Cubase, Sonar or Live with them.
jeffh wrote: You're almost right... There's much wrong with Ardour, Jack, and most other Linux audio software, but there's nothing wrong with Linux or ALSA. Hell, Google runs on 100% Linux servers(like 90% of the internet does), if that doesn't scream "performance and reliability", I don't know what does.
Yeah, I know. I use linux for everything else except serious music making.

Post

reteo wrote:You didn't say this previously
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 83#5145883 (and many other threads previously)
reteo wrote:The other advantage is entirely for people like me, who do not want to use Windows or Mac. Just as you are invested in your system and workflow, so are we.
I invested a lot in a workflow on Linux. I made sure wineasio worked. I tried to made sure all three versions of wineasio worked with two versions of Jack. And by this I mean I put the project up on SourceForge and saved it disappearing. And tried getting the wineasio, Jack and Wine devs to take some notice. At the time, RoseGarden was about the only MIDI-centred application capable of running and that crashed every two minutes or so and was, at the time, a dead project.
ret wrote:Yeah, I know. I use linux for everything else except serious music making.
This. Up until I got into making music, everything I did was on *nix (I was using BSD back in 1989, switched briefly to SVR4 and then to Linux in 1992/3).

If I didn't want flexibility and the ability to add and remove stuff and upgrade it as I saw fit, a locked down pre-built "working" Linux studio environment, including hardware, might be an option (like Muse Receptor kind of idea -- that's Linux but I don't see people claiming "price" as one of its advantages).

Post

reteo wrote:
glokraw wrote:Hi, can you launch executables, then using win-jack for example, connecting
FM8 to Guitar Rig...recording the output in Audacity? This would be enjoyable,
and possibly lighter on system resources than running a DAW with
FM8 and Guitar Rig plugins.
Cheers
Jack is can route ASIO audio through ASIO4all, although if I recall correctly, it cannot route MIDI. Audacity has direct support for Jack, although I'm not sure how well it works in Windows.
Sounds oh so totally confusing and unnecessarily complex when you simply could use a brilliant software like Usine. Much simpler, much easier and 99,9 % less headaches.

Post

pljones wrote:
reteo wrote: You didn't say this previously
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 83#5145883 (and many other threads previously)
Good point, but I don't think that was Jeff saying that. Granted, it was semantics, but if he'd said it earlier in our debate, I probably would have conceded sooner.
pljones wrote:
reteo wrote: The other advantage is entirely for people like me, who do not want to use Windows or Mac. Just as you are invested in your system and workflow, so are we.
I invested a lot in a workflow on Linux. I made sure wineasio worked. I tried to made sure all three versions of wineasio worked with two versions of Jack. And by this I mean I put the project up on SourceForge and saved it disappearing. And tried getting the wineasio, Jack and Wine devs to take some notice. At the time, RoseGarden was about the only MIDI-centred application capable of running and that crashed every two minutes or so and was, at the time, a dead project.
I think the WineASIO issue had more to do with licensing issues than anything else. Let's face it; ASIO and VST will not work fully in Linux until Steinberg gets off their golden throne and makes their tools available on Linux (or gives permission for other developers to do so).

As long as nobody's making noise for them to do so, Linux will remain a second-class citizen where those (and other) standards are concerned. And development will have to continue before people can start making that noise. And for development to continue, someone's going to have to be willing to use what's available, document it, report bugs, and so on.

I do what I can, and others do what they can. Is Linux ready? Maybe. Depends on what you want to use. One thing I know for sure is that Linux-based tools are not the crash-a-minute bugfests that certain people like to announce as if it were a statement of fact, rather than a personal observation. I use them pretty regularly, and sometimes, people even get to hear the results. (Well, non-musically, anyways. I don't think anyone wants to suffer through THAT torture.)
Lampros Liontos (aka. Reteo Varala)

The Penguin Producer - Tips, tricks and techniques for producing multimedia using the Linux operating system.

Post

Here's the linux audio paradox:

Instead of making our system as working & appealing as possible to finally getting companies like Steinberg or Cakewalk interested in our platform we make our priority to offer technology like jack (and Ardour) for windows and mac as a solution for a problem that does not exist on neither platforms. Believe me, in a big picture the only pro audio related problem with mac and especially windows is having way too many options.

Post

reteo wrote:One thing I know for sure is that Linux-based tools are not the crash-a-minute bugfests that certain people like to announce as if it were a statement of fact, rather than a personal observation. I use them pretty regularly, and sometimes, people even get to hear the results. (Well, non-musically, anyways. I don't think anyone wants to suffer through THAT torture.)
Oh please.... You already admitted that you have VERY basic needs... Sorry, but your needs are not the same as most people who needs things like MIDI (you know, that thing Cubase has had since 1991), and plugins(mid/late 90s FTW?). Even your average rock band needs MIDI+plugins now. I'm not some obscure minority in wanting that, YOU are the obscure minority who in the year 2013 still has little need for it.

That's like saying: I only need to back a car up, and this car works great because the 'reverse' gear is usable and the car was cheap! Nevermind that gears 1 through 5 are completely broken for those normal people who will also do city and highway driving with it. It works fine for your myopic use case, so you're going to declare it great for everybody and proceed to "promote" it. That doesn't help Linux, that just creates more people who will try it, then promptly quit using it and form a bad opinion of it.

If you want to promote the standard Linux stuff, you should at least warn people about how the "recording a MIDI-less band" use case is the only one that is completely viable, otherwise your just setting everybody up for failure(or else you're just delusional in thinking it's 'not that bad' when 99% of those who tried it disagree with you)...

Post

ret wrote:Here's the linux audio paradox:

Instead of making our system as working & appealing as possible to finally getting companies like Steinberg or Cakewalk interested in our platform we make our priority to offer technology like jack (and Ardour) for windows and mac as a solution for a problem that does not exist on neither platforms. Believe me, in a big picture the only pro audio related problem with mac and especially windows is having way too many options.
Yep... Also, notice that Ardour badly wants to be "paid-for" software on their website, as if it would be worth paying for compared to any other DAW in existence(especially on Mac). They make thousands of dollars a month in donations, and whine constantly about how it's not enough. Did they ever stop to think that they are already overpaid for the quality and usefulness of their product? Hell, I would've started donating maybe $200/month had they delivered the "goods" 3 years ago when promised (which in my case is MIDI). MIDI is still a joke after being years late, and I doubt it will ever work properly, unless they somehow get it right in Ardour5 (and the project isn't abandoned by then).

Post

jeffh wrote:
reteo wrote:One thing I know for sure is that Linux-based tools are not the crash-a-minute bugfests that certain people like to announce as if it were a statement of fact, rather than a personal observation. I use them pretty regularly, and sometimes, people even get to hear the results. (Well, non-musically, anyways. I don't think anyone wants to suffer through THAT torture.)
Oh please.... You already admitted that you have VERY basic needs... Sorry, but your needs are not the same as most people who needs things like MIDI (you know, that thing Cubase has had since 1991), and plugins(mid/late 90s FTW?). Even your average rock band needs MIDI+plugins now. I'm not some obscure minority in wanting that, YOU are the obscure minority who in the year 2013 still has little need for it.

That's like saying: I only need to back a car up, and this car works great because the 'reverse' gear is usable and the car was cheap! Nevermind that gears 1 through 5 are completely broken for those normal people who will also do city and highway driving with it. It works fine for your myopic use case, so you're going to declare it great for everybody and proceed to "promote" it. That doesn't help Linux, that just creates more people who will try it, then promptly quit using it and form a bad opinion of it.

If you want to promote the standard Linux stuff, you should at least warn people about how the "recording a MIDI-less band" use case is the only one that is completely viable, otherwise your just setting everybody up for failure(or else you're just delusional in thinking it's 'not that bad' when 99% of those who tried it disagree with you)...
A couple things:
1: I didn't declare it great for everybody. I never said that once. In fact, I made it clear from the start that you shouldn't use it if you have a workflow that already works for you! I said that it has advantages for certain types of people, and that those certain types of people tend to be the experimental and DIY types.

2: Obscure minority, my foot. Between podcasters, DJs (both club and streaming radio), and film sound engineers, the number of people who work with audio who don't need MIDI to make music are quite significant. And the tools we've been arguing over are sufficient for those purposes.

3: Will you please stop with the insults? It's not scoring you any points, unless you happen to be trolling. And if that's what you are doing, then congratulations. But that works against you if you want Linux developers to take an honest look at your software and cooperate with you; people don't tend to be cooperative when you tell them that their work is a crap-fest, and that they're pretenders next to you, the Only True Developer.
Lampros Liontos (aka. Reteo Varala)

The Penguin Producer - Tips, tricks and techniques for producing multimedia using the Linux operating system.

Post

jeffh wrote: 1. I'm aiming to attract Windows users to PyDAW, not the same 20 people who actually use Linux for audio.
You make my point well, those new people don't care about your Ex,
and focussing on your Ex, works against promoting your products.
Play only to your strengths.

The whole KX/Ardour thing...from a distance, it appears
Paul Davis does not want Ardour3 beta distributed in distros,
or placed in repositories, and prefers public users testing it,
to discuss results within their confines.

Kx wanted people using their repository to sensibly update,
avoiding contaminating system updates, and only begrudgingly
released an iso, after much user wailing. The userbase of course
ignores all this. Then they refuse to aquire supported gear, and
squeal when their unsupported stuff doesn't work.

And you know full well there are 27 people using linux audio :x
:wink: :wink:
Back to the sugary suite mode, does the new Hexter dssi work fine
in Pydaw? The new editing mode really extends it's usefulness,
and the history vault of sysex banks available.

Someone posted here awhile back, that timemachine was buggy,
and abandoned...that might be a good app to revitalize, I use it
every week, never had a bug show up, but it sure is handy.
Cheers

Post Reply

Return to “Hosts & Applications (Sequencers, DAWs, Audio Editors, etc.)”