KVR Audio

revo11 · Post by **revo11** » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:33 pm

I've got a hankerin for doing some modular routing within renoise (something that can route between instruments and effects, not just within a synth like aalto or ACE).

What do people like here (OSX)?

There's plogue bidule is very mature but development seems like it's slowed to a crawl. Also the UI looks very 1995 last I checked. On the other hand, it can host VSTs, which is huge.

Mux looks cool but it's new, any first-hand experiences? How does it hold up against reaktor? Reaktor might be a little too low level, I 'd like to get some music-writing done at some point. Audulus looks a little comparable to mux, but I'm guessing it's still new and immature at this point.

Is there anything like plogue, but that's more up to date and has a more elegant UI?

~r11

allofdrab · Post by **allofdrab** » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:48 pm

I use multiple instances of Bidule in Renoise all the time. Routing MIDI and sending parameter information between the various instances is a breeze. Comes with 32 virtual MIDI ports. It may seem like it's being developed slowly, but it IS very up to date with 64 bit versions and multi-core support. Also everything hosted within a Bidule Plugin is easy to automate (IMO) and link to other automations if desired. Plus the options for routing and processing MIDI, audio and other data are HUGE. I've been using Budule for roughly 7 years and feel that is actually very mature. Just maybe not as pretty as say Reaktor, but it is extremely CPU efficient and stable. Just my 2 cents. I love what it can do, and so the GUI has grown on me big time. Actually I find the patch bay design and functionality quite elegant. Possibly the best software purchase I've ever made.

paradiddle · Post by **paradiddle** » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 pm

Mux is great! You should try the new version 5 demo. It's not as deep as reaktor but it can host vst (apply lfos, envelopes, sequences, ect) and it has a bunch of internal generators and effects to build your own and some premade like musynth, mudrum, musampler (with onboard sample editor) ect. It is quite powerful. Definitely one of my best buys recently.

revo11 · Post by **revo11** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:00 am

How does the automation work for instruments within bidule within renoise? The demo doesn't allow you to use bidule as a plugin, so I don't have a sense of this.

Do you have to map the instrument's controller to like a bidule slider and automate the bidule slider? It can get a bit tedious to do this if there are a lot of parameters to automate?

allofdrab wrote:I use multiple instances of Bidule in Renoise all the time. Routing MIDI and sending parameter information between the various instances is a breeze. Comes with 32 virtual MIDI ports. It may seem like it's being developed slowly, but it IS very up to date with 64 bit versions and multi-core support. Also everything hosted within a Bidule Plugin is easy to automate (IMO) and link to other automations if desired. Plus the options for routing and processing MIDI, audio and other data are HUGE. I've been using Budule for roughly 7 years and feel that is actually very mature. Just maybe not as pretty as say Reaktor, but it is extremely CPU efficient and stable. Just my 2 cents. I love what it can do, and so the GUI has grown on me big time. Actually I find the patch bay design and functionality quite elegant. Possibly the best software purchase I've ever made.

secretkillerofnames · Post by **secretkillerofnames** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:32 am

I reckon it depends what you want. Are you looking for a modular synth environment or something else?

Bidule is really something else - very cool but I use it mostly stand-alone routing plugins together and using Bidules decent MIDI randomisations. I know it runs in OhmStudio (and is a way to host Audio Units) but i'm not sure about Renoise. It works but won't let you load other plugins in it by the looks of it.

Unless i'm completely mistaken MUX is only available on Windows. Mulab is on OSX but that is a DAW with MUX in it.

If you want a modular synth I can recommend KarmaFX Modular and Tassman 4 but really Reaktor is the most versatile and has the most potential. You can go for a very long time just with free stuff from the user library. I've had it for 6years and only just started digging underneath the hood. There are some fantastic modular resources in the user library. Reaktor won't let you put your VSTs into the system like you can with Bidule and Audulus.

Which is the other thing... Audulus is still being developed and it seems to have lots of potential but I haven't really been reaching for it lately.

paradiddle · Post by **paradiddle** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:54 am

My mistake, I though mux was available on OSX also.

revo11 · Post by **revo11** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:59 pm

I don't need bidule for standalone algorithmic composition stuff - I have max 6 for that.

KaramFX/Tassman and Reaktor may be serviceable, but I'm really looking more for something to do modular routing of instruments and effects rather than something to create instruments. I have experience doing that stuff, but it's not what I want to do right now. I mainly want a tool that makes up for the lack of modular routing in my hosts... if something like audiomulch was available in VST form and was host-friendly, that would be ideal.

secretkillerofnames wrote:I reckon it depends what you want. Are you looking for a modular synth environment or something else?

Bidule is really something else - very cool but I use it mostly stand-alone routing plugins together and using Bidules decent MIDI randomisations. I know it runs in OhmStudio (and is a way to host Audio Units) but i'm not sure about Renoise. It works but won't let you load other plugins in it by the looks of it.

Unless i'm completely mistaken MUX is only available on Windows. Mulab is on OSX but that is a DAW with MUX in it.

If you want a modular synth I can recommend KarmaFX Modular and Tassman 4 but really Reaktor is the most versatile and has the most potential. You can go for a very long time just with free stuff from the user library. I've had it for 6years and only just started digging underneath the hood. There are some fantastic modular resources in the user library. Reaktor won't let you put your VSTs into the system like you can with Bidule and Audulus.

Which is the other thing... Audulus is still being developed and it seems to have lots of potential but I haven't really been reaching for it lately.

secretkillerofnames · Post by **secretkillerofnames** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:14 pm

revo11 wrote:I don't need bidule for standalone algorithmic composition stuff - I have max 6 for that.

KaramFX/Tassman and Reaktor may be serviceable, but I'm really looking more for something to do modular routing of instruments and effects rather than something to create instruments. I have experience doing that stuff, but it's not what I want to do right now. I mainly want a tool that makes up for the lack of modular routing in my hosts... if something like audiomulch was available in VST form and was host-friendly, that would be ideal.

Ok I see. Well maybe you should try EnergyXT (http://www.energy-xt.com/index.php?id=0101)
I believe it does something similar to what you are looking for.

allofdrab · Post by **allofdrab** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:35 pm

revo11 wrote:How does the automation work for instruments within bidule within renoise? The demo doesn't allow you to use bidule as a plugin, so I don't have a sense of this.

Do you have to map the instrument's controller to like a bidule slider and automate the bidule slider? It can get a bit tedious to do this if there are a lot of parameters to automate?

allofdrab wrote:I use multiple instances of Bidule in Renoise all the time. Routing MIDI and sending parameter information between the various instances is a breeze. Comes with 32 virtual MIDI ports. It may seem like it's being developed slowly, but it IS very up to date with 64 bit versions and multi-core support. Also everything hosted within a Bidule Plugin is easy to automate (IMO) and link to other automations if desired. Plus the options for routing and processing MIDI, audio and other data are HUGE. I've been using Budule for roughly 7 years and feel that is actually very mature. Just maybe not as pretty as say Reaktor, but it is extremely CPU efficient and stable. Just my 2 cents. I love what it can do, and so the GUI has grown on me big time. Actually I find the patch bay design and functionality quite elegant. Possibly the best software purchase I've ever made.

Hey;
automating vst and au plugins hosted in plugin versions of Bidule is very straight forward. You simply link the name of whatever parameter you want to automate to one of the 512 Bidule parameters offered for each plugin instance of Bidule using the Parameter linking window.

The plugin version of Bidule is essentially the same as the standalone version.

allofdrab · Post by **allofdrab** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:49 pm

secretkillerofnames wrote:Bidule is really something else - very cool but I use it mostly stand-alone routing plugins together and using Bidules decent MIDI randomisations. I know it runs in OhmStudio (and is a way to host Audio Units) but i'm not sure about Renoise. It works but won't let you load other plugins in it by the looks of it.

Incorrect; loads everything I throw at it, and some stuff even runs better. Honestly, the plugin version of Bidule is a FANTASTIC tool to have in my arsenal. For example; occasionally I want to use a plugin in a host, but something about it doesn't work, or the plugin doesn't load. So I load it in a plugin instance of Bidule and away I go. Also, they may not look as pretty as say, a Reaktor made one, but Bidule ROCKS for making step sequencers that can do their own automating or drive things like drum machine or synth plugins, and of course all the parameters can be automated from say, Renoise. I'm happy to share my Bidule creations to whoever is interested. As well, Bidule preset handling is awesome, as it allows you to automate preset changes AND changes to presets are automatically saved, so it makes using presets in a live context REALLY fun.

secretkillerofnames · Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:15 am

allofdrab wrote:
secretkillerofnames wrote:Bidule is really something else - very cool but I use it mostly stand-alone routing plugins together and using Bidules decent MIDI randomisations. I know it runs in OhmStudio (and is a way to host Audio Units) but i'm not sure about Renoise. It works but won't let you load other plugins in it by the looks of it.
Incorrect; loads everything I throw at it, and some stuff even runs better.

Well now you say that and because I don't want to be dissing a program I like out of hand I've retried it in Renoise.
Did a rescan of the plugins from the Edit menu and it definately isn't showing all of my plugins. They show up fine in the stand-alone Bidule and when I use both BiduleVST and AU in Ohm Studio and Reaper but not in Renoise. I wonder if this is some kind of 64bit compatibility issue? As you say the parameters tool works well to route MIDI controller values.

allofdrab · Post by **allofdrab** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:28 am

secretkillerofnames wrote:
allofdrab wrote:
secretkillerofnames wrote:Bidule is really something else - very cool but I use it mostly stand-alone routing plugins together and using Bidules decent MIDI randomisations. I know it runs in OhmStudio (and is a way to host Audio Units) but i'm not sure about Renoise. It works but won't let you load other plugins in it by the looks of it.
Incorrect; loads everything I throw at it, and some stuff even runs better.
Well now you say that and because I don't want to be dissing a program I like out of hand I've retried it in Renoise.
Did a rescan of the plugins from the Edit menu and it definately isn't showing all of my plugins. They show up fine in the stand-alone Bidule and when I use both BiduleVST and AU in Ohm Studio and Reaper but not in Renoise. I wonder if this is some kind of 64bit compatibility issue? As you say the parameters tool works well to route MIDI controller values.

Huh, interesting. I'm using a 32bit MacBook Air, Mountain Lion with no missing plugins. Likely worth bringing up your issue in the Bidule forum. Are you using the latest version of Bidule? There was a new version released December 17. Also, any releases after the August 24, 2012 release have the 32bit and 64bit in the same file.

secretkillerofnames · Post by **secretkillerofnames** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:34 am

allofdrab wrote: Huh, interesting. I'm using a 32bit MacBook Air, Mountain Lion with no missing plugins. Likely worth bringing up your issue in the Bidule forum. Are you using the latest version of Bidule? There was a new version released December 17. Also, any releases after the August 24, 2012 release have the 32bit and 64bit in the same file.

Yeah i'm using the latest versions and have tried them on both Mountain Lion and Snow Leopard. Same deal but only with Renoise. Can I ask what version of Renoise you are using?

V0RT3X · Post by **V0RT3X** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:35 am

Keep any eye on bitwig studio.

cron · Post by **cron** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:47 am

Have you tried Usine? Sounds like exactly the kind of thing you need. Can run standalone/VST. Hosts VSTs and exposes their parameters allowing some very extensive modulation.

To be honest I'm not (yet) a user, but I've heard so many Usine recommendations for this kind of thing over the years. I had a look at it but haven't yet invested the time to get it going. Maybe when the next experimental impulse hits...

VSTs with modular routing