KVR Audio

hao nao · Post by **hao nao** » Sat May 08, 2004 8:38 pm

I saw a sample CD on sale in Kurzweil format -- luckily I did a little Googling first and have the impression that the CD itself might not be directly readable by a PC, even though I have a sample player that can play .krz files

Is that correct? Is there some kind of PC software for accessing the contents?

Also, would the same be true for other types, such as Giga, Akai, E-mu?

Thanks for any tips,

Kevin

hao nao · Post by **hao nao** » Sun May 09, 2004 2:14 am

sorry to reply to my own post, but here are some things I found:

yes, the Kurzweil disks have their own format which is not directly readable by a PC

so far I have found two utility programs which allow one to read and convert hardware-sampler CDs on a PC or Mac:

CDXtract: http://www.cdxtract.com

Translator: http://www.chickensys.com

Does anyone have any comments or reviews about those programs?

Or maybe I'll just search the forum, now that I know what to look for ...

Toker · Post by **Toker** » Sun May 09, 2004 4:11 am

yes both those programs will succesfully extract the samples from a kurz cd, and even convert them to other formats.
Unfortunately, the samples alone are only the beginning. Kurzwiel includes multilayered programs in their cds but the translators cannot convert them.
I have the TAKE6 cd with the finest vocal samples on the planet....on the kurz k2000 the programs are rich and layered, but playing the single samples back in halion just isn't the same. I suppose you could map it all out in halion or giga (the info is proveded what sample is used in each patch) but it is way too much work.
I keep my k2000 only for this cd, but I hear halion 3 is going to read/convert kurz cds, so I am eagerly awaiting it's release......
hope this helped, as i am also very passionate about this subject.....

T

flyingsquirrelofdeath · Sun May 09, 2004 8:14 am

As well as being layered, I'm under the impression that the samples are further sweetened up with the K2000/K2600 internal DSP algorithms (tuning, filters, complex modulating equations, etc). Even when Halion does read the mapped audio (.krz) we'll still be missing out on all the sound-shaping DSP combined with it.

But maybe Steinberg will add some high-quality DSP shaping algorithms to Hypersonic one day and get the same effect. The sample quality of the Hypersonic library is similar to the way you describe translated Kurzweil libraries, wouldn't you say?

hao nao · Post by **hao nao** » Sun May 09, 2004 9:42 pm

thanks, Toker and fso'd -- the info and caveats are indeed helpful

I was looking at a brass collection, so would be happy with just multisampling across the keyboard and velocity layers, or even just the ability to mount the CD as a virtual drive -- but I have to consider how often I would use a rather expensive utility

Some follow-up questions:

Leaving conversion and DSP effects aside, and assuming there's a magic PC sampler that can use the program info from any of the major hardware-sampler formats, would any of these formats have advantages over the others, for use in a PC environment?

One key difference seems to be that some formats store their samples in stereo, whereas others store them as paired mono -- would stereo be the better choice?

Toker · Post by **Toker** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:03 pm

As well as being layered, I'm under the impression that the samples are further sweetened up with the K2000/K2600 internal DSP algorithms (tuning, filters, complex modulating equations, etc). Even when Halion does read the mapped audio (.krz) we'll still be missing out on all the sound-shaping DSP combined with it.

Do you thnk we will see a software sampler in the future that will enable me to play Kurzwiel format cds on the pc and have them sound as good as god (and Kurzwiel) intended?

T

nutsadamus · Post by **nutsadamus** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:46 pm

havran wrote: so far I have found two utility programs which allow one to read and convert hardware-sampler CDs on a PC or Mac:

CDXtract: http://www.cdxtract.com

Translator: http://www.chickensys.com

Does anyone have any comments or reviews about those programs?

Or maybe I'll just search the forum, now that I know what to look for ...

Yup, I've used both and as far as Kurzweil support goes, I've had much better luck with Awave Studio, http://www.fmjsoft.com/awavestudio.html . I thought it was much simpler/intuitive than the other 2, as well as a heck of alot more flexible and speedier.
Try the demo.

Nuts

OzoneJunkie · Post by **OzoneJunkie** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:21 pm

Toker wrote:Do you thnk we will see a software sampler in the future that will enable me to play Kurzwiel format cds on the pc and have them sound as good as god (and Kurzwiel) intended?

T

Not unless someone makes a Kurzweil VSTi. The VAST (Variable Architecture Synthesis Technology) engine that Kurzweil is known for was (and still is) fairly deep. It does depend on the sample programs. If they're only using the samples/audio bits, along with keyboard layers, then it could sound as good/the same. But then, you might as well just buy something native to the sampler you have, assuming you find something that sounds as good. If the programs use the VAST engine, then you'd need a VSTi (or equivalent softsynth that emulates VAST)

René · Post by **René** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:25 pm

Kurzweil CDs are formatted as PC hard disks. While many CD readers can read them when connected to the K2x (SCSI), they can't when on the pc.

A couple of years ago I found a freeware utility to read the samples, I can't recall how it was called though. I'll search it on the backups later, but perhaps google can do it.

-René

isdjan · Post by **isdjan** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:26 pm

VAST...VSTI...

someone wanna develop a k2000 emulation pleeze?

name should be VaSTi 2000.

René · Post by **René** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:35 pm

VeASTi

OzoneJunkie · Post by **OzoneJunkie** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:05 pm

I would love a K2000 (or higher) VSTi. My k2k is the only hardware I own... I'd sell it if there was a soft equivalent..

isdjan · Post by **isdjan** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:10 pm

OzoneJunkie wrote:I would love a K2000 (or higher) VSTi. My k2k is the only hardware I own... I'd sell it if there was a soft equivalent..

yes - the k2x00 is an absolutely great piece of hardware.

i'm kinda more lucky there. best hardware i ever sold was my wavestation

hao nao · Post by **hao nao** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:27 pm

nutsadamus wrote:Yup, I've used both and as far as Kurzweil support goes, I've had much better luck with Awave Studio, http://www.fmjsoft.com/awavestudio.html . I thought it was much simpler/intuitive than the other 2, as well as a heck of alot more flexible and speedier.
Try the demo.

thanks, Nuts ... can that one also access the different CD-ROM formats in a regular PC CD drive? I don't have a sampler CD-ROM to test that.

I'm not stuck on Kurzweil format ... I'll just spill the beans and say that it was Quantum Leap Brass for $99 that started me wondering about this whole topic

Kurzweil and I believe E-mu formats were $99 for the set, whereas the Akai version was $199

maybe in the next year or so some of these libraries will be redone for PC samplers anyway [speculating]

hao nao · Post by **hao nao** » Mon May 10, 2004 6:38 pm

René wrote:Kurzweil CDs are formatted as PC hard disks. While many CD readers can read them when connected to the K2x (SCSI), they can't when on the pc.

A couple of years ago I found a freeware utility to read the samples, I can't recall how it was called though. I'll search it on the backups later, but perhaps google can do it.

-René

Thanks, René, that gave me something to work with

from Google, I found kcdread by Marc Halbrügge ... http://www-lehre.inf.uos.de/~mhalbrue/k ... kimage.htm

[edited the link above, which used to point to the linux version]

some other K2*** utilities listed here:
http://www.k2users.org/k2/k_util.htm

with kcdread, I might be all set until something like "VeASTi" comes out

Orion's Sampler can read .krz files ... I'll see how that goes ... will also try the Awave Studio demo for some conversions

are Kurzweil-format CDs readable on a PC?