KVR Audio

Deist · Post by **Deist** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:01 am

Shame on me! I checked ChorX before but it had slipped my mind!
That one there is a great plugin (then again, ain't all Xils-Lab products?).
Thanks for the reminder Lotuzia!

Satasha · Post by **Satasha** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:46 am

BBD Echo-80 http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=375083

Soundtoys EchoBoy http://www.soundtoys.com/product/EchoBoy

Deist · Post by **Deist** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:32 am

Satasha wrote:BBD Echo-80 http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=375083

Soundtoys EchoBoy http://www.soundtoys.com/product/EchoBoy

Thanks! I had heard of EchoBoy, but not that it was BBD modelled. I didn't know BBD Echo-80, I'll check it out! (I assume the above link you gave is a mistake, so here's the product link on KVR: http://www.kvraudio.com/product/bbd_echo_80_by_audiosyn)

NAD · Post by **NAD** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:33 pm

Deist wrote:Hi there NAD! No worries: please be specific about exactly what word(s) or expression(s) in my post you find rude and why, and I'll edit them out. (Given you're so far the only person offended (despite my clearly stated "no offence"), I don't judge it necessary to modify anything without proper reason, thank you)

Sorry, maybe I overreacted a bit....

(Mind you, 'no offense' is most often followed or preceded by an offensive remark.)

Ichad.c · Post by **Ichad.c** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:49 pm

For freeware chorus - I'd highly recommend Dust Bucket from SignalDust. Somehow it went highly unnoticed though DC'12

It isn't a non-linear model - it's very clean - which is very very hard btw. - I'm a programmer myself and doing anything 'variable-samplerate' is problematic - because it is actually a 'variable-samplerate' within a fixed samplerate i.e. atleast twice the amount of aliasing to combat. I usualy added a bit of light filtering and parralel distortion to Dust Bucket - when I need something nastier.

Regards
Andrew

digitalboytn · Post by **digitalboytn** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:10 pm

Well...

The truth is that the term "bucket brigade" comes from a bunch of firemen passing buckets of water down the line to fight fires...

It was a very analog exercise...

I'm not sure that we would be able to afford the labour costs these days...

Thank God for hoses

Ichad.c · Post by **Ichad.c** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:32 pm

Come to think of it - there is already so many BBD delay type plugins - why doesn't anybody do a emulation of a CCD (charge-coupled-device) delay? Marshall Time Modulator anyone?

Not the best of videos - but it gets the point across.

WOK · Post by **WOK** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:56 pm

First it is hard to name "the" BBD emulation; a BBD chip is like an analog audio memory. It can be used to produce any kind of delay related effects, such as chorus, flanger, echo (the latter needs several chips in a row, thus decreasing audio quality). The overall sound depends on the frequency the chips are driven and additional filter hardware at the in- and output. Typically the audio signal is also compressed at the input (and expanded at the output) to improve signal/noise ratio. In cheaper hardware devices of course these extra parts where reduced to the max.

So a BBD has these typical (originally unwanted) influences on the sound:

* upper frequency limit - around 8 Khz
* changes in dynamic from compressing/expanding (or only compressing)
* clock signal, typically 16 Khz, can "bleed thru"

Until here it's easy to emulate. Now comes the complicated part. A BBD is not like a digital sample but an analog shift register. It takes samples of the incoming signal at the clock rate and shifts it thru by loading very small capacitors. These do not load/unload linear, and when the next "sample" is transfered, they "give" their voltage to the next capacitor and receive a new load. The higher the difference of the voltages is, the more unlinear this process will be. Also the capacitors may vary by a small amount. This is happening several hundred times until the signal leaves the chip. That's extremely hard to emulate accurately.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:16 pm

Ichad.c wrote:Come to think of it - there is already so many BBD delay type plugins - why doesn't anybody do a emulation of a CCD (charge-coupled-device) delay? Marshall Time Modulator anyone?

http://intdevices.com/proaudio/product/show/11/

WOK · Post by **WOK** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:33 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
Ichad.c wrote:Come to think of it - there is already so many BBD delay type plugins - why doesn't anybody do a emulation of a CCD (charge-coupled-device) delay? Marshall Time Modulator anyone?
http://intdevices.com/proaudio/product/show/11/

Wow - 150$ for a flanger-delay plugin. Maybe I am doing the wrong plugins

(notably because the outstanding feature of the hardware device was it's clean sound quality for that time. They tried to reduce the artifacts to the max by using expensive circuitry, so this can be emulated easier in a plugin than cheaper devices...

)

Ichad.c · Post by **Ichad.c** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:24 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
Ichad.c wrote:Come to think of it - there is already so many BBD delay type plugins - why doesn't anybody do a emulation of a CCD (charge-coupled-device) delay? Marshall Time Modulator anyone?
http://intdevices.com/proaudio/product/show/11/

Did you listen to the demos? The intdevices version is awesome - but not even close to the real thing, a guitarist I knew while growing up had one - it can sound pretty weird sometimes. Even intdevices doesn't say anywhere that they emulated the CCDs(and they would have for marketing) - and it is also a strange and unique clocking structure under the hood - with parralel running clocks. Also they are extremely expensive, and very hard to find and prone to breaking. A famous mix engineer also uses one (@ high feedback) to *restore* transients on drums. Just some food for thought - I like strange things.

@midnight · Post by **@midnight** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:53 pm

Arcdev et-200

metalifuxx · Post by **metalifuxx** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:22 am

I prefer just hooking my Boss DM-3 pedal into my interface if I want real BBD delay. I wish it was the DM-2 (less noise reduction and tone sucking), but I got the DM-3 for $40 about 12 years ago. I don't know if any of the BBD/analog delay algos can quite do what this does yet. And the digital delay units can't quite do the oscillating pitch warble/stretch when you tweak the delay time, or in this case the Repeat Rate on the DM-2/DM-3.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6185854/dm3/Bos ... xample.mp3

Signal chain:
Les Paul (bridge pickup)>Boss DM-3>Stealth Pedal>Amplitube 3 default clean tone, with no spring reverb or cabinet room reverb

I start dry just strumming/picking through open drop D chord. Then turn the pedal on, with the Intensity (Feedback) all the way up to clearly hear the effect and nuances of the clock frequency. I tweak the Repeat Rate (time) through out. When it is below half way and you slow down the rate, you begin to hear more of the clock noise creep into the signal (the crunchy ring mod like sound), and the delay sound is less prominent, decaying faster, even though longer. The clock noise is most prominent when the Repeat Rate is all the way down (slowest delay time). At about 2:30 I start messing with the classic self oscilating feature that BBD delays offer, as I move the Repeat Rate knob past half way and max it out and bring it down again. If done carefully and not extreme you can get musical notes and play with the pitch back and forth with your input signal still recognizable. Echo (Mix) knob was on full too. The oscillating section is not limited, but I separated that part and adjusted the clip gain, it should be fine, but watch your ears/volume

Hint: download this and place your favorite ambient reverb in your signal chain for some modulated ambient delay madness.

Here is a track that uses the DOD FX65 analog (BBD) stereo chorus in all the modulated/chorus parts. It's in mono though, put still imparts a reall 3D depth to the guitars.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6185854/kvr%20s ... %20DOD.mp3
In the last section of the song, I have the knobs set for a leslie sound, but at times it makes my guitar sound like a xylophone/vibraphone/electric piano type sound.

Are plugins there yet for the BBD sound?

Deist · Post by **Deist** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:06 am

NAD wrote:(Mind you, 'no offense' is most often followed or preceded by an offensive remark.)

Haha, quite true and fair enough! (^_-)

Deist · Post by **Deist** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:52 am

WOK wrote:First it is hard to name "the" BBD emulation; a BBD chip is like an analog audio memory. It can be used to produce any kind of delay related effects, such as chorus, flanger, echo

Thank you for the more in-depth tech details about how BB Devices work and the emulation side to it. Great insight from a great developer!

I'm well aware that any given BBD is very tough to emulate (not to mention prolly truly impossible for a 100% accurate model I suppose), and that BBD is a generic term for a vintage technology used in many chorus, flanger, delay effects and the like... My original question was therefore focusing on finding what are the best BBD effects existing at this point in software, help me sort the various offers there are. Obviously they won't cope with the true thing, but for several reasons I'd rather settle for less in order to remain all software, so I'll live with it.

I also should have emphasized that I'm focusing in particular on BBD Fx out of total love for the vintage string machines sound, to obtain as close a sound to these as possible (in software) of course (but not for that sole purpose -- I'd like to use vintage BBD chorus/ensemble and echo on other sound sources possibly, so not only for replicating a string ensemble).
I believe Loomer String is still the best option available for an accurate emulation of vintage string synths (divide-down osc and stuff...), but I'm not so sure nor convinced about it's effect section (if anyone care to comment, agree or disagree, please do so!), and am still wondering if there are not some _better_ alternatives out there, in terms of emulating _that_ kind of vintage sound effects, you know.

Note: I notive you (very honourably, hehe) didn't indulge into any shameless self-promotion, but I'd still care to hear what people think about CromFX regarding its faithfulness to "vintage sounding"!

Bring Back the Bucket Brigade!!!