Are we seeing the decline of the plug-in industry?

[Delfinoverde]

If hackers are as good as you say, then they should do something useful... but they aren't, and they don't. Preying on some small developer who is barely able to pay rent is reprehensible.

Could be right - but it's still not cracker's fault when prices (included for paying rents) are definitely too high in most developed 1st world countries!

[Numanoid]

NO, this time you're wrong Mr.Heckmann!
You clearly have a wrong image of those crackers out there. They're not a bunch of bored teenagers or whatever - some are probably older than you and with more knowledge! The developers may think that they're extra-smart but in the end every software can be cracked. Just the efforts make the difference. Once again: Developers who invest too much in copy protection are simply wasting time and money they could use to improve their software.

My thinking is that old people with "superior" knowledge, don't give it away for free.

Every software can probably be cracked, if enough time and money is put into doing that.

But do "crackers" have those kind of resources?

[fluffy_little_something]

The funny thing is that there are countless synths out there, but I don't know a single one yet that is ideal for me, a synth that strikes the right balance between features, sound, CPU usage, price, user interface, etc. There is at least one issue with every synth I have tried to far. If I finally found the right synth, I would stop looking and buying... For that ideal synth I would not mind paying 150 bucks.

Sounds like you are looking for the perfect wife

Yes So far I am living in polygamy, I would like to get rid of all my mediocre wives and buy the right one once and for all

[Haraldator]

I don't get how this copy protection thing is so troublesome for people. I have C/R plugins, 60-70 iLok licences, eLicencer stuff... I've used a dongle since 1993 (a black metal thing for my copy of Steinberg Pro24 on the Amiga500)... Seriously: What's the problem? What's all this "hassle" people keep talking about? Like, please point out to me what the exact problem is. Not some "well, what if they go out of business" hypothetical scenario, but rather, what the real problem is in day to day use. What's the big deal about having to copy/paste a serial code in the response thing now and then, or having a dongle sticking out of your computer? Sure, I could argue that my MacBook Pro only has two USB ports, but isn't that something to blame Apple for - and not businesses that are just looking for effective means to protect their livelihoods?

I just think it's a bit weird. Why do some people seem so eager to get developers to drop the whole copy protection thing altogether? Doesn't it strike you guys that many of the companies we depend on to make our music (at least I do) would in all likelihood go out of business if they didn't protect their work from being stolen?

[rod_zero]

Prices are just high if you think you need to buy a lot of stuff.

You get a DAW (Ableton, cubase, sonar, studio one, FL studio, reason) and you are pretty much set, for less than 1000 you have everything, and more, you will ever need.

Plug ins are just kind of luxury add ons, How much quality do they add over your included daw plugs? 10%? 20%?

In reality people doesn't need more than a bunch, but if you go out buying everything of course it is going to be expensive.

[fluffy_little_something]

Prices are just high if you think you need to buy a lot of stuff.

You get a DAW (Ableton, cubase, sonar, studio one, FL studio, reason) and you are pretty much set, for less than 1000 you have everything, and more, you will ever need.

Plug ins are just kind of luxury add ons, How much quality do they add over your included daw plugs? 10%? 20%?

In reality people doesn't need more than a bunch, but if you go out buying everything of course it is going to be expensive.

You can even delete a zero from that. DAWs such as Mulab, Mixcraft and now Tracktion are pretty complete for less than 100 dollars or euros these days.

[pdxindy]

If hackers are as good as you say, then they should do something useful... but they aren't, and they don't. Preying on some small developer who is barely able to pay rent is reprehensible.

Could be right - but it's still not cracker's fault when prices (included for paying rents) are definitely too high in most developed 1st world countries!

I think nobody should pay rent just for being alive... but that is, unfortunately, not the world we live in. And you are right, it is not the crackers fault that the world is that way. It is however, their fault when they target some small developer who is him/her self struggling. There is nothing admirable about that!

And if they are such great coders, they can write a top quality synth and give it away for free. Imagine that! Actually creating something rather than tear apart someone else's creation.

[Urs]

NO, this time you're wrong Mr.Heckmann!
You clearly have a wrong image of those crackers out there. They're not a bunch of bored teenagers or whatever - some are probably older than you and with more knowledge! The developers may think that they're extra-smart but in the end every software can be cracked. Just the efforts make the difference. Once again: Developers who invest too much in copy protection are simply wasting time and money they could use to improve their software.

Now you're underestimating us.

Our method is simple and takes less time to implement than to crack. We've defeated 6 highly appraised teams. If there are genius crackers out there, they simply don't do audio software.

All they ever do is change jz to jnz in our honeypots. But this is not how our protection can be circumvented. It's not in the code, man... it's not in the code.

(do yourself a favour, read the nfos. They even admit it)

Edit: OTOH it's maybe quite good for us if people still believe in the myth of the genius cracker

[rod_zero]

If hackers are as good as you say, then they should do something useful... but they aren't, and they don't. Preying on some small developer who is barely able to pay rent is reprehensible.

Could be right - but it's still not cracker's fault when prices (included for paying rents) are definitely too high in most developed 1st world countries!

I think nobody should pay rent just for being alive... but that is, unfortunately, not the world we live in. And you are right, it is not the crackers fault that the world is that way. It is however, their fault when they target some small developer who is him/her self struggling. There is nothing admirable about that!

And if they are such great coders, they can write a top quality synth and give it away for free. Imagine that! Actually creating something rather than tear apart someone else's creation.

Just for a second imagine how life was before civilization:

Humand had to search for shelter too, the price? looking for it, and in some cases fighting other humans to keep it.

Humans had to hunt (risking their lives) or gather veggies, eother way a lot of time went in to this.

If they want a more custom shelter they had to built it, gather materials too.

So, human existence has never benn "free", if you were burn someone had to feed you, some had to hunt or gather.

If anyone blame nature for requiering "energy" for humans to live.

[Nightpolymath]

Edit: OTOH it's maybe quite good for us if people still believe in the myth of the genius cracker

Seriously though I would assume that all one needs is a finite sample space of different encrypted passwords using say a 256 bit key with checks in different places in the software to have something fairly secure. Even 256 bits would be overkill (AES specifies 128 bits as a minimum), but encryption is only as good as the weakest link, however. I think the key (no pun intended) here is the "delayed check" which is probably sufficient to frustrate even the most persistent cracker. Figuring out a set of disassembled routines at a hundred different places for checks with a random 128 bit encrypted key is not something I'd want to attempt; it's just not worth it.

[Delfinoverde]

Nightpolymath - Such a heavily protected Plug-In would probably be unusable as the checks would dramatically slow down its performance!

And you dreamy developers out there - continue to dream....
....or just wake up and give up your useless extra-protections.
There's NOTHING sure in this world!
_______________________________________________________________

[Urs]

Nightpolymath - Such a heavily protected Plug-In would probably be unusable as the checks would dramatically slow down its performance!

And you dreamy developers out there - continue to dream....
....or just wake up and give up your useless extra-protections.
There's NOTHING sure in this world!
_______________________________________________________________

You are entiteled to your beliefs, even if you think that us audio devs are somewhat "B grade" developers.

A good protection needs to check only once in a while. Some of ours do only once in 3 years. No performance hit here

Hahaha, I imagine some of your senile grey bearded crackers with a cheap bottle of wine (they use stolen credit cards, hence have no money for the good stuff) sitting there, waiting for it to finally happen

[softska]

I don't get how this copy protection thing is so troublesome for people. I have C/R plugins, 60-70 iLok licences, eLicencer stuff... I've used a dongle since 1993 (a black metal thing for my copy of Steinberg Pro24 on the Amiga500)... Seriously: What's the problem? What's all this "hassle" people keep talking about? Like, please point out to me what the exact problem is. Not some "well, what if they go out of business" hypothetical scenario, but rather, what the real problem is in day to day use. What's the big deal about having to copy/paste a serial code in the response thing now and then, or having a dongle sticking out of your computer? Sure, I could argue that my MacBook Pro only has two USB ports, but isn't that something to blame Apple for - and not businesses that are just looking for effective means to protect their livelihoods?

I just think it's a bit weird. Why do some people seem so eager to get developers to drop the whole copy protection thing altogether? Doesn't it strike you guys that many of the companies we depend on to make our music (at least I do) would in all likelihood go out of business if they didn't protect their work from being stolen?

Because not everyone has a computer that does nothing but music in the studio. And when you're on the go, stuff breaks or get lost. And in some case like SSL, a dead harddrive will mean I lose my license forever. So guess what? Now they tell me I should use yet another hardware dongle (so I can risk losing a dongle instead) too!

Honestly I could careless who to blame, but they're not making my life any easier, just so happen my case isn't all that unique either. And don't get started about dongle on stage... Not the first time I see someone (stupid enough) to use PT on stage just to have a random stage hand glaze over the ilok and shut down the whole rehearsal

Just a usage thing. Be happy it's not a problem you have to care for.

[digitalboytn]

I think that people should buy the software that they use...

But it is better if that software isn't crippled with protection that impedes the performance of the computer...

If a better balance of respect is achieved between the manufacturers and the user base,then hopefully the protection systems don't need to be so radical.

One of the important things is that the end users respect the intellectual rights of the companies who spend a great deal of time creating and coding the software...

When people just steal it,they tend to undervalue the software and they are also showing a great deal of disrespect to themselves..

It's amazing how uplifting a little self respect can be

[markheath]

I don't get how this copy protection thing is so troublesome for people. ... Seriously: What's the problem? What's all this "hassle" people keep talking about? Like, please point out to me what the exact problem is. Not some "well, what if they go out of business" hypothetical scenario, but rather, what the real problem is in day to day use.

Well the last dongled product I ever used was Hypersonic. I loved it as a virtual instrument, it was my favourite softsynth at the time. But the syncrosoft dongle drivers were hopeless. Barely a week went by without me having to upgrade to the new version of drivers, or roll back to an old version, just to get it to load. I'd come home from work looking forward to an evening of recording and instead I got an evening of crashes, reboots and reinstalls.

As for C/R, a while ago I wanted to put some percussion on a track. No problem, I have EZDrummer percussion expansion. Except that it decided it needed re-authorising. No problem, except that my four "slots" have all been used up due to previous computer upgrades (I only use it on one computer). So I had to email Toontrack support to ask for a slot to be freed up again. They did get back to me the next day, but that pretty much killed my momentum for recording that night.

Those are two examples of real day to day "hassles" that badly implemented copy protection can cause. For the record, I'm not saying that it can't be done right. The products I have that come with a license file have caused me no problems whatsoever (REAPER, Kjaerhus, Valhalla). And the C/R / authorization step that Native Instruments, Cakewalk, Line 6 use hasn't inconvenienced me at all (yet). But it is very frustrating to be denied access to products you have legitimately paid for.