Linux...anybody using it?

[jeffh]

So I actually resigned and used the live CD.
I got it to work for about 5 mins. I got to make sounds, and I quite like what I heard.
But I got a crash.
Restarting worked. Then I was tweaking a knob, and another crash. This time, jack started throwing xruns. And no audio anymore.

Midi, I couldn't get to work.

I guess I'll wait for the alsa version. All in all, behavior not far from what Jeff describes on *other* linux apps

Orly?

What did the crash report say?

Edit: Are you using Nvidia graphics by chance?

[urlwolf]

Didn't look at the logs, sorry.
I may have switched to the usb card (the excellent musicstramer II) when the xruns started.

Yes, nvidia card.

[urlwolf]

I tested my midi cable on win with midiox. It works, but linux seems to not see it.

I've had enough. Maybe I'll have a look again in a week or two, but this is not what I want to do in the little time I have for music.

[jeffh]

Ah, yeah, I think the Nouveau driver is what got you there... The conventional wisdom for Linux used to be "buy Nvidia", but now it's "buy anything BUT Nvidia"...

AMD officially supports the open source Radeon driver, and it's the most stable one (minus power management tech isn't fully implemented), Intel's official supported open source driver is almost as stable(and has fully working power management), and Nvidia refuses to support their driver(which is a 100% reverse-engineered community effort), and it sucks in every imaginable way, I cannot advocate using the Nouveau driver(or even buying Nvidia) for that reason...

Nvidia's binary closed-source driver has it's own set of problems and limitations, but installing it into a Ubuntu 12.04 install would probably fix your problems. I should investigate including the Nvidia binary driver into PyDAW-OS, but that is a "Big Giant Can of Worms"(tm), and I fear it may screw around with the other drivers if installed... I'll buy an Nvidia card and test it in my desktop, but I can't make any promises I'll release it if it starts causing problems for everybody else(or maybe I can spin a separate ISO for Nvidia users)...

As far as your MIDI device... Every one I ever tried worked in Linux, but if yours doesn't, then yeah, not much either one of us can do about that, sorry.. Currently PyDAW only looks for new MIDI devices at startup, if you plugged it in after starting PyDAW, then you wouldn't be able to see it. I'll eventually have it poll for device changes every 15 seconds or so, but that's just one item on a TODO list that's a mile long (1.6 kilometers for any non-Americans out there)

[glokraw]

The conventional wisdom for Linux used to be "buy Nvidia", but now it's "buy anything BUT Nvidia"

The real wisdom was to buy nVidia, but not brand new models/chipsets,
as those take effort/time for linux support to arrive. Newest is/was rarely
the better option. Unused video and soundchips should be
turned off in the bios, and in linux, added to a text file blacklist in
/etc/modprobe.d (or your distros other unique location). Some distros
default to official nVidia driver support, rather than Nouveau,
so audio and video don't need tampering with to work. AMD may be fine now,
I have never needed it.
Before buying gear to use in linux, find examples where others
have documented the steps to get it working.

edit: everything you don't use, should be turned off in the bios,
especially in a DAW computer! You can turn them on again if needed.

[glokraw]

I tested my midi cable on win with midiox. It works, but linux seems to not see it.

I've had enough. Maybe I'll have a look again in a week or two, but this is not what I want to do in the little time I have for music.

Jeff is building a solid Pydaw foundation first, bells and whistles later,
so be patient. If a system without kludges emerges, it will make the
inclusion of features and innovations far easier. A year from now?
So much can change in a year! Even a week, when good fortune prevails

I make 'discoveries' far far too often, the lack of which would be
considered absurd blunders, by intelligent mortals

[jeffh]

Even a week, when good fortune prevails

This weekend's release is shaping up to be pretty epic

In fact, the 2 major features of this release will pretty much bring the vision of PyDAWv2 to fruition... Then after a heavy QA/testing period to ensure that PyDAWv2 is as solid as it can be, I'll begin developing PyDAWv3, which should without a doubt establish itself as the heavyweight champion of the world... Or at least of the Linux part of the world

[codec_spurt]

Even a week, when good fortune prevails

This weekend's release is shaping up to be pretty epic

In fact, the 2 major features of this release will pretty much bring the vision of PyDAWv2 to fruition... Then after a heavy QA/testing period to ensure that PyDAWv2 is as solid as it can be, I'll begin developing PyDAWv3, which should without a doubt establish itself as the heavyweight champion of the world... Or at least of the Linux part of the world

Hi, I asked in another thread what would you recommend as the best distro to try this with, or doesn't it really matter (as long as you use something from the top 20 in Distrowatch)?

I've not been impressed with any DAW stuff so far in Linux, but this looks pretty good and I'm definitely going to give it a go.

Out of curiosity I also asked if it was coded in Python. Not that it matters.


Btw the new ATI Catalyst drivers are very good and do do some decent temperature management on my laptop which can get silly hot without them. We're talking like 10 - 15 degrees depending on distro. It's the first thing I do whenever I create a new bootable usb. Run fglrxinfo and lm-sensors just to double check it's all up and running.

cheers.

[jeffh]

Hi, I asked in another thread what would you recommend as the best distro to try this with, or doesn't it really matter (as long as you use something from the top 20 in Distrowatch)?

I'd definitely recommend Ubuntu... but if you just want to give it a go, it might be easiest just to download PyDAW-OS, which is just Ubuntu 12.04 + PyDAW and all of it's dependencies, which you can put on a flash drive...

I've not been impressed with any DAW stuff so far in Linux, but this looks pretty good and I'm definitely going to give it a go.

Thanks for the kind words. If you're into dance/house/trance/drum-n-bass/dubstep(and I get the impression you are), I think you'll find it to be quite an interesting proposition. It's a more pattern-based approach than tradional DAWs, and the audio sequencing is still somewhat rudimentary...

Tonight I actually set out to write my first ever full tune in my own software(finally, LOL), I entered that Brioni Faith remix competition I stumbled across, and I thought to myself "Damn, the synths/samplers/effects/MIDI I've got going on are pretty f*ing good"... but now I'm realizing audio sequencing still sucks... but now I know I need to do something about that

Out of curiosity I also asked if it was coded in Python. Not that it matters.

The GUI is coded in Python and PyQt4(about 10,000 lines of it maybe), but the heavy lifting for audio is done in C, because frankly Python wouldn't stand a chance for the hardcore low level stuff, but it's a breeze to add features to the UI with Python...

EDIT: I'll even do one better and give you a behind the scenes tour of the Python part

This would be the bulk of the Python right here, and the rest is my "libpydaw" module that provides some abstraction for the file-saving/messaging-the-C-part:

https://github.com/j3ffhubb/audiocode/b ... n/pydaw.py

Btw the new ATI Catalyst drivers are very good and do do some decent temperature management on my laptop which can get silly hot without them. We're talking like 10 - 15 degrees depending on distro. It's the first thing I do whenever I create a new bootable usb. Run fglrxinfo and lm-sensors just to double check it's all up and running.

cheers.

I agree, people give Catalyst a bad rap, but I've always used it on laptops without issue... It'd be nice if the open driver could do better power management, but I can't complain when my AMD Trinity laptop gets about 8 hours of battery life with Linux/Catalyst when it only got 5 hours with Windows/Catalyst...

[codec_spurt]

I'd definitely recommend Ubuntu... but if you just want to give it a go, it might be easiest just to download PyDAW-OS, which is just Ubuntu 12.04 + PyDAW and all of it's dependencies, which you can put on a flash drive...

Oh so you've made up your own distro. Nice. I'll have a proper look around your website, I just gave it the once over and liked the look of the GUI. It's almost like a stripped down sort of Ohm_Studio from what I can see. I've tried Ardour and the rest just for the hell of it. What's the point. But I would love, even if it was just one, serious DAW, however 'basic' to play about with on Linux. Being a big EnergyXT fan, I should get around to installing it, but just for whatever reason not had the time yet.

I usually use Mint (KDE, Lxde, Cinnamon) and am just getting int the Debian version of it now I know a bit more. I also run FatDog64 which is a Puppy derivative, very safe, very stable even by Linux standards and blazing fast with all that OS written into a RAM Disk. Plus a few more which I won't bore you with. Probably my favourite though is Maya, which was based on Ubuntu 12.04 LTS. But I'll probably just d/l your distro too for reference sake. I'm running KDE with that version of Maya but it is shocking how stable it is for KDE, which for me has always been very buggy. I'm glad it's LTS coz it's working so well. All up to April 2017. I'll install your distro first and then put it on there when I know my way about. And on FatDog64 it would fly. I slag off 64-bit sometimes on the PC Vst side of things but it's pretty cool having 8GB of RAM with three quarters of that left over to play about with for programs. So any audio files loaded would automatically be loaded into RAM once they were pulled off the disk.

Thanks for the kind words. If you're into dance/house/trance/drum-n-bass/dubstep(and I get the impression you are), I think you'll find it to be quite an interesting proposition. It's a more pattern-based approach than tradional DAWs, and the audio sequencing is still somewhat rudimentary...

Rudimentary is good, stable is better. Call me shallow but most of the DAWs that do exist (that I have tried) have long, involved interfaces, and I'm not just talking about the graphics here, and I do like good looks, it just makes the whole experience so much more enjoyable. If the screenshots I've seen on the page at KVR are anything to go by, it looks like it might be fun. I'm curious now. Don't worry about flashy features, imho, the two types of people who will be trying it will be kids testing out distros or Linux geeks who aren't into music, so they will appreciate simplicity, AND the other type of person trying it will be music geeks like us that like messing about with Linux as well and they will appreciate stability. So the two go hand in hand. But I'm sure you know what you are doing.

Tonight I actually set out to write my first ever full tune in my own software(finally, LOL), I entered that Brioni Faith remix competition I stumbled across, and I thought to myself "Damn, the synths/samplers/effects/MIDI I've got going on are pretty f*ing good"... but now I'm realizing audio sequencing still sucks... but now I know I need to do something about that

Congrats. That's a milestone. And I must say if the midi is anyway half decent as you say, then yes, don't let the audio side down. In fact, I always judge, and I think others too, first on the audio side, because setting up midi with jack and all that stuff is just very involved. Dragging and dropping a few of your already
saved .wav files is a no brainer. But then again you are really onto a winner if it is as good as you say, because I imagine you have done the hard part first. I would think doing the audio side is not as convoluted and involved as doing the intricacies of midi. Just make sure you implement a nice functional browser. So many DAWs fall down in this department, even on PC, though it is getting better, but none of them are really perfect. It just makes working with audio so much nicer when you don't have to wrestle with the GUI to load a file. Then again there is always drag and drop....

The GUI is coded in Python and PyQt4(about 10,000 lines of it maybe), but the heavy lifting for audio is done in C, because frankly Python wouldn't stand a chance for the hardcore low level stuff, but it's a breeze to add features to the UI with Python...

I thought Python might have had something to do with it. And C, of course, all the power of Assembler, with all the ease of use and simplicity of Assembler.
At least you didn't write it in Javascript, or even worse, Delphi.
Will it be user skinnable, I mean, can we at least change a few colours here or there on the GUI, with some easy controls, however basic? Then again it is a dark theme so that isn't so important. Dark is good.

I agree, people give Catalyst a bad rap, but I've always used it on laptops without issue... It'd be nice if the open driver could do better power management, but I can't complain when my AMD Trinity laptop gets about 8 hours of battery life with Linux/Catalyst when it only got 5 hours with Windows/Catalyst...

I haven't had many problems with distros running on my proper workstation which has a slightly better than I need nVidia gfx card in it coz I do a bit of 3D stuff. But it is fairly old by today's standards. It's overkill for Audio though, but nice to have. If I bought a new laptop now, it definitely wouldn't have nVidia inside. A workstation has cooling, but you know Laptops are easy to fry. You can actually FEEL the difference. In fact, lm-senors tells me I'm running at 45 to 50 degrees, but I am sure that is wrong, because you could fry an egg on the thing without Catalyst installed. With them, it is barely warm to the touch. Shame they don't come pre-installed with the distros, then again, I think they did with PCLinuxOS...


cheers.

[jeffh]

It's almost like a stripped down sort of Ohm_Studio from what I can see. I've tried Ardour and the rest just for the hell of it. What's the point. But I would love, even if it was just one, serious DAW, however 'basic' to play about with on Linux. Being a big EnergyXT fan, I should get around to installing it, but just for whatever reason not had the time yet.

I started writing my plugin suite a little over a year ago, but the DAW component is roughly 6 months old (as in, first lines of code written 6 months ago). It started out like a tracker, but is already evolving into more of a traditional DAW with some tracker-like concepts.

I slag off 64-bit sometimes on the PC Vst side of things but it's pretty cool having 8GB of RAM with three quarters of that left over to play about with for programs. So any audio files loaded would automatically be loaded into RAM once they were pulled off the disk.

Actually, the reason PyDAW-OS is 64 bit only is because EVERYTHING is loaded into RAM for maximum performance... All of that direct-from-disk streaming stuff is a relic of another era when 1GB of RAM was the norm... 2GB could run some types of PyDAW projects well enough, 4GB is good enough for most people, but with today's low RAM prices, I personally have no pity for people with barely any RAM, you can't be a complete cheapskate and expect the best of everything...

Rudimentary is good, stable is better.

...and that's been the focus... In fact, I just fixed a critical bug(and a couple of minor ones), I'm going to spin up another release either tonight or tomorrow morning...

And C, of course, all the power of Assembler, with all the ease of use and simplicity of Assembler.

I don't know if it's that bad, but it is an acquired taste for sure

Will it be user skinnable, I mean, can we at least change a few colours here or there on the GUI, with some easy controls, however basic? Then again it is a dark theme so that isn't so important. Dark is good.

Yup, fully theme-able with CSS and .png images already... The only part that I really need to make theme-able is the knobs on the plugins, I haven't figure out a good, non-hack-ish way to make that work yet, but the colors and all of the other control skins can be themed quite easily....

[codec_spurt]

Actually, the reason PyDAW-OS is 64 bit only is because EVERYTHING is loaded into RAM for maximum performance... All of that direct-from-disk streaming stuff is a relic of another era when 1GB of RAM was the norm... 2GB could run some types of PyDAW projects well enough, 4GB is good enough for most people, but with today's low RAM prices, I personally have no pity for people with barely any RAM, you can't be a complete cheapskate and expect the best of everything...

Oh I didn't know it was 64-bit only. Suits me. In this instance, for the reasons you are doing it, I am all for it. 64-bit forever! It's the only way! I take it all back.

Yup, fully theme-able with CSS and .png images already... The only part that I really need to make theme-able is the knobs on the plugins, I haven't figure out a good, non-hack-ish way to make that work yet, but the colors and all of the other control skins can be themed quite easily....

Excellent! Thinking ahead. I can fire up Gimp and Inkscape and have a tinker.

I haven't loaded up Linux for over a month now, but I think I'll go hunt down your distro and put it on one of my spare usb sticks, or probably an SD card as the performance isn't too bad on the good ones and I have a slot in my laptop so I can just keep it 'permanently' in there and choose which OS I want at boot without grepping around for their larger cousins, which I still somehow manage to lose.

I'll let you know how I get on.


cheers.

Edit:
Found it. Dl'ing now. Full .iso, then I think I'll try putting it on FatDog64, I already have the audio extension.pet file that can sit on a separate partition (hd/usb/sd) and can be loaded automatically at boot. It contains LOADS of audio stuff - audacity and hydrogen drum machine, which is probably the best thing for audio for Linux imho, and jack and a few vsts as well. It will hopefully work ok on that as my sound and audio on Maya is borked badly for some reason. I may even need to re-install if I can't figure it out. Time. Time. And if I could get eXT running as well, I'd be happy as a sandboy.

Oh, and do you have an MD5 hash for the .iso? I couldn't seem to find it. Just to be on the safe and sure side.

[jeffh]

Oh, and do you have an MD5 hash for the .iso? I couldn't seem to find it. Just to be on the safe and sure side.

Yeah, it's right there in the same download directory as the PyDAW-OS ISO on my SourceForge page... It's just called "md5sum.txt".

I'm actually spinning up a bug-fix release right now, it fixes 2 minor bugs and one pretty significant one(but will you only encounter if setting a timestretch mode on an audio item). Yesterday's release brought some massive changes, I guess I hadn't quite worked out all of the kinks yet, but the one I'm doing now should be solid...

[jeffh]

Ahhh... Now that I've been "eating my own dogfood"(copyright 1992-2013, Google Inc.) for a day, I now understand what you were on about

I note that on playback the cursor stops at the end of the last item in a region and skips the first item of the next. It catches up by starting at the second item in the following region (or looping region). Audio is unaffected, the cursor simply skips tracking the item. Let me know if that's not clear.

Sorry, I thought you meant the audio cursor, not the MIDI/region cursor... Right you are, I'm not sure when that bug slipped in, but I'll attempt to fix it today, it can't be that hard to track down...

Also having erratic behavior with the envelope editor, it gets hinky about when/where I add/delete breakpoints. Sometimes a change near the start of a curve winds up forcing all following points to the end of the curve, piling them up in a nice vertical line.

It appears to be only a specific set of conditions that trigger this, which is why I had no idea what you were talking about, but I know how to reproduce the behaviour now... That is bloody annoying, this bug is top priority right now...

[codec_spurt]

Oh, and do you have an MD5 hash for the .iso? I couldn't seem to find it. Just to be on the safe and sure side.

Yeah, it's right there in the same download directory as the PyDAW-OS ISO on my SourceForge page... It's just called "md5sum.txt".

Oops. So it is. Observation isn't my strong point lately.

Btw, does Ubuntu Vanilla come with some kind of USB creator as Mint does? If not what would you recommend? Unetbootin, pendrivelinux, or some other way? I've spent a lot of time creating bootable usbs and sds from various means, but I know sometimes it can be more than a bit tricky, if not impossible if you use the wrong method. I'm a bit rusty with my Linux skills and I've only been using it a year or two anyway, so I'm still a proper noob. I've got a Debian expert install dual booting off my winxp laptop via grub, but don't ask me how you put it on a usb stick.

Then again I might just Dl the .deb file or the tarball and take it from there.
I'll have a look at it first and just do a live Cd and then worry about getting a bootable usb going later. I'd like to get it working on Mint if I can. Now might be a good time to do that Audio overhaul on my Maya LTS. When it loads from a live CD does that load into RAM as well? That would be good for just having a quick play about and reporting the odd bug. I'll worry about persistence later.
Oh well, I'll work it out I'm sure.

cheers.