KVR Audio

dayjob · Post by **dayjob** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:22 am

you could do like the H3000 or H8000 and have an "expert mode" which reveals a lot more parameters for the tweaker type

Mario-C. · Post by **Mario-C.** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:42 am

A 4 voice doubler for vocals is something I would buy, here's what I'd like to see in a doubler plug in :

- Hi and low pass filters

- Pan control per voice

- Delay Control per voice

- Random generators and lfos (both syncable to tempo) to control pitch and delay times to get a more realistic doubling effect, I've seen those in hardware units like the Lexicon MPX and it works great on vocals, it gives a really organic feel to the sound and helps to avoid the static pitch shift feel.

theodore_whitmore · Post by **theodore_whitmore** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:05 am

A couple of ideas that spring to mind. Firstly, let me choose how much quality I apply the processing with. I like the sound of old samplers/ FX units at times. The option to run at low bandwidths and bitrates and to choose an interpolation mode between none and best would be a useful feature for me.

Secondly I would like the option to sweep the pitch by changing the effective samplerate. As I understand it that allows for smoother pitch changes, at least with explicit delays.

Finally on the UI. The most visually obvious way and powerful way to arrange four pitchshifters I can think of is as a 4 row by 4 column matrix (similar to the x by y operator matrix in FM8). To me that would create a quick way to achieve feedback-feedforward and serial/parallel configurations. A colour change for 'active paths' would help to parse the configuration at a glance.

Potentially modulation paths could be configured by a drag and drop from modulator X to shifter input (for frequency) or shifter output (for level). I guess that would count as functionality that requires explanation and be antithetical to the Valhalla way-but it is think-point-do simple.

olepro · Post by **olepro** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:38 am

I love the delay/pitch shifter in Ensoniq TS10/12

It sounds great when each new delay is pitched up or down, very cool effects it can do !

valhallasound · Post by **valhallasound** » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:42 am

TwoToneshuzz wrote:I'm fooling around with Uhbik G right now, 3 instances with different interval transpositions, with lfo's in my host numerology controlling the transpose amounts sæt to around a 1/4 of a semitone. These three are fed with a source from Diversion mixed with the dry in a sub mixer then sent into MFM 2 and another instance of Uhbik G as a granular effect. The mix between these two is controlled using a Numerology Dual Lfo..

I just heard your example. Pretty cool, in a seasick way. I like seasick.

Is this the phase vocoder mode in Ubhik G?

So maybe the way is just keeping the main Valhalla Pitch shifter as simple as possible and then using several instances as needed in a host of your choosing..

Cheaper to develop and easier to keep track of mod destinations in the host..

The main advantage to having parallel pitch shifters in a single plugin is what can be done with the feedback routing. Having things cross feed each other, in a *stable* manner, is difficult to do with DAW sends/returns. I don't know what sounds will happen with 4 of these in a cross feedback structure, as I've only had 2 of my shifter blocks running in such a way. That was a REALLY cool sound, though, so I am wanting to hear MOAR.

Sean Costello

valhallasound · Post by **valhallasound** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:21 am

Update: I need to give this project some more thought. It looks like SoundToys has come out with a doubling plugin, Little MicroShift. This is currently FREE:

https://www.soundtoys.com/sxsw2013/&rc=235-5533-755

The free plugin has one knob (mix), three buttons to select different modes, and does some sort of "mojo" distortion. The SoundToys folks also worked on the H3000, which is the hardware that is still used for this doubling duty in a lot of studios. So I'm sure that they will do a good job. I wouldn't be surprised if the different Little MicroShift modes emulate particular H3000 presets (i.e. Dual H910s or whatever it is called).

This makes one of my original goals (an easy to use doubler) a little less necessary/marketable. I could just proceed and make my massively parallel backwards pitch shifter thing:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/f**k-e ... des,11056/

My gut instinct is telling me to wait on this for awhile. I think that releasing a plugin with 50+ parameters is not a great idea, but I can't currently figure out how to have control over a multi-voice granulator without having a lot of controls. Which means I need to think about it, go on some walks, keep coding up the raw DSP blocks, and wait for that "eureka!" moment.

Sean Costello

dayjob · Post by **dayjob** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:57 am

soundtoys all well and good unless you don't use ilok based plugs.

surely there is room for more than one micro shifter in the market?

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:53 am

dayjob wrote:soundtoys all well and good unless you don't use ilok based plugs.

surely there is room for more than one micro shifter in the market?

I agree. I refuse to use anything based on ilok. I'm fine with developers wanting to protect their intellectual property, but I refuse to purchase a USB device whose sole purpose is to limit my use of software.

BDeep · Post by **BDeep** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:07 am

Sorry to hear of your (temporary?)setback. I second the notion that the Soundtoys stuff is iLok only, and therefor not an option for everybody. But moreover, there has been a certain quality, musicality and well, mojo, to Valhalla products that make it stand out from any crowd. What I'm trying to say is, I do understand you need a market for a product, but I believe there's room here. It didn't stop you from making three (!!) reverbs anyway

Apart from that, there are undoubtly some additional features to add to the simple shifter concept Soundtoys is offering, to make it stand out. I would welcome a pitchshifting device with delay capabilities built in, a FreqEchoPro so to speak (but with a vastly better name

) That would make any work on bringing FreqEcho up to date also more worthwhile.

Just my 2c,

ZenPunkHippy · Post by **ZenPunkHippy** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:09 am

Fortunately for us, Sean didn't feel the same way about reverbs

t3toooo · Post by **t3toooo** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:15 pm

i wouldn't hold back your project,your "announcement" doesn't even make sense at all,although everybody have a bad day sometimes.

seriously,if it would be about who is faster or who have the next "new idea" i think audio development would disapear completely.

who need a new sampler after shortcircuit anyway?
my delay from 2001 ? it just needs an update,don't know why company's are going to develop delays anymore,we have simply enough.

and sound differences are not counting anymore?

guess the thesis that every eq sound about equal is proved within this thread!

ah,now you're going to hold back your project-idea because you're convinced that i put my ilok on my computer just for one free plugin?

t3toooo · Post by **t3toooo** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:26 pm

btw,meldas plugins went an incredible way.

grab the harmonizer for the half price today.
i made a session with mmultibandgranular and mmultibandharmonizer,playing my guitar through the comp and i'm blown away about the results,no need for another harmonizer plugin for me.

but this doesn't mean that your plugins do not have a constant place in my sessions.

aaah,sometimes developing is like music.free yourself from psychological restrictions!

(semi rant mode off)

don't forget low latency

scook · Post by **scook** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:44 pm

A little disappointing. No iLok here either. If I had an iLok, I would own a copy of Eventide's software version of the H3000. So far that is the only plugin that has tempted me to consider buying a dongle.

valhallasound · Post by **valhallasound** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:06 pm

BDeep wrote:What I'm trying to say is, I do understand you need a market for a product, but I believe there's room here. It didn't stop you from making three (!!) reverbs anyway

Four, if you count the reverb capacities of ÜberMod. Five, if you count Eos from Audio Damage.

The thing is, I'm pretty good at reverbs. I'm not quite as good at pitch shifters. Meanwhile, the SoundToys folks are VERY good at pitch shifters. Especially pitch shifters that emulate the H3000. Since they wrote the H3000 algorithms.

To put things in perspective: I first started coding reverbs (in Csound) back in 1999. Since then, I have designed HUNDREDS of reverb algorithms. Most of those sucked, but at this point I've got a fair number of reverb algorithms that DON'T suck. Plus, I have a pretty good understanding of reverb algorithms from old hardware, and most of those don't suck (I don't spend a lot of time studying the sucky hardware). Meanwhile, I've only coded a few pitch shifters. One of them was in 2004 on a SHARC processor, and was later ported to Blackfin. Another one ended up in Shimmer. This isn't exactly *zero* experience, but it isn't all that impressive compared to 25+ years of experience with pitch shifting for folks at SoundToys.

This doesn't mean I won't be releasing a pitch shifter at some point, just that I need to think about it more, and it may not be the next Valhalla plugin. I don't know if the "microshift" feature should be as much of a focus of a Valhalla pitch shifter.

From my brief tests of the Little Microshift, I think I need to spend a bit more time on the raw quality of my pitch shifting code. I've liked my pitch shifting code in the past, and it works well in Shimmer, but it can have a bit of a comb filter sound in the detuning applications. If I release a pitch shifter, I want it to sound GOOD.

I should note that the SoundToys pitch shifter is still in the category of what I would call "dumb" pitch shifting. I don't think they are doing any sort of deglitching, as far as matching up the phases of the signals in the different grains. For detuning purposes, pitch tracking / phase matching isn't really necessary. It comes down to having better windows for each grain, so I should do some research into this.

I also whipped this preset up in ÜberMod yesterday:

<ValhallaUberMod pluginVersion="1.0.2" presetName="MicroDouble" Mix="1" Depth="1" StereoWidth="0.5" Delay="0.0232999995" Feedback="0" Spread="0.5" Slope="0.5" Skew="0.5" Random="0" TapGain="0.5" Diffusion="0.5" DiffSize="0.0204081628" DiffModRate="0.0490490496" DiffModDepth="0.5" LowCut="0" HighCut="1" SpatialXover="0.145728648" DetuneRate="0.0490490496" DetuneDepth="0.5" VibratoRate="0.298245579" VibratoDepth="0" OverMod="0" DriveInGain="0.25" DriveOutGain="0.75" DriveNoiseGain="0" FeedbackRotate="0.5" SmoothingTime="0.0990990996" ColorMode="0" DelaySync="0" type="0.0416666679" DiffEnable="0" Drive="1" DrivePrePost="0" Speed="0" InputPan="0.125"/>

Different principle than the microshift stuff, but in the mix it sounds REALLY close. I used a bit of drive to get closer to the grunge of the H3000.

Sean Costello

Funkybot's Evil Twin · Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:01 pm

It's probably for the best: as it stands there's already Audio Damage's Discord as well. That's another one that does "dumb" 2-voice pitch shifting with a delay, filters, and presets for the H3000 +/- wideness along with the "Low" drums.

Beyond that, if one wanted to explore some more, there's also DMGAudio's Pitchfunk.

That's actually why I was hoping for an intelligent harmonizer from Valhalla. Give me a multi-voice intelligent harmonizer (with normal "dumb" pitch shifting too), add some dive bombing and whammy effects (for that "the Edge" goodness or even some Beastie Boys "Intergalactic" robot voice shifting fun), toss in a delay line, and some filtering, maybe even something dumb like a ring modulator, then you'd have something unique on your hands. If you wanted to go nuts, you could create some semi-modular patching abilities.

Not sure how you'd do all that and make it simple though.

That said, I'm sure whatever you do next will be great.

Let's talk about pitch shifters!