Why are there no close to hardware native vst effects?

[valhallasound]

I don't think so I own a sherman filterbank show me an replacement in software. I wish I could sell my sherman and bought a software instead.

why? why would you be so convinced of the irreplaceability of something and yet actually want to replace it? utter insanity.

1st - At the moment a sherman filterbank is irreplaceable.
2nd - I want to replace it for obvious reason that working ITB is much more convenient.

I'd suggest the Sherman FilterBank idea to Andrew Simper (Cytomic) or Urs Heckmann (U-He). These are the best guys out there working in the native DSP filter modeling area.

My guess is that the Sherman FilterBank would take a TON of cycles to model accurately. The nasty little filters, like the Korg35, tend to take the most cycles to capture their behavior. Not sure why this is, as I haven't put a lot of thought into modeling nonlinear filters lately. I did some work in this area in the early 2000s, but Andrew, Urs, UA, the NI guys, and others have made amazing progress in this field in the last decade.

Sean Costello

[noiseresearch]

/* static noise */

[Fred_Abstract]

soundtoys stuff is decent when compared to good hardware but depends what you are after.

Soundtoys are for me one of the most overrated plugins.

I didn't read the whole topic but i I think you've answered your own question.
A pair of new ears...

Maybe I need maybe you need.

i think you need cause if i post hardware or soundtoys i doubt you will find wich is wich easily but i m too lazy to do it.. i have done it for myself.
i think it s one of the few companies that captured hardware depth in some of their plugs , these sure don t sound like a joke with cheap sound like many plugins out there to me .

if you know way better please tell me

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Someone pointed out that SoundToys plugins are over priced and to some extent I agree but at the exact same time they just work, Fit in a mix without dominating it (unless you want them to do so for example whack your mix through crystallizer and decapitator pushed really hard). So even though I have paid quite a lot for the licenses to their plugins they have paid for themselves in time saved on mixes.

I can not honestly believe that if you have used a lot of analogue and classic digital delay effects boxes that EchoBoy did not put at smile upon your face resistant or ChorX by XILS-Lab in respect to some of the most desirable chorus effects boxes. Vroom by Sean is the first algo reverb that came along and with it I can honestly say has stopped me from always reaching for the convolution reverb/small collection of IRs I reached for when needing not so much reverb but early reflexions/slight ambience to sources, The way it works equally great as on the tail department is just a bonus to me personally.

I have no idea what type/style/genre of music which you create but for me its mostly modern down tuned metal (although it involves tracking more than I would of ever thought when I started along time ago!) It is just not possible to have all I need in the box and it will never be. The results depend just as much on the musicians as they do the choice of room, microphones and pre amplifiers chosen by me let alone when it comes down to mixing, So having outboard is not only essential for me it makes workflow and routing easier plus I still have certain things that are worth to me sending sources out the box to process with then bringing the signal back in because they just work, No there is nothing magical about them but I haven't found something which saves the gigantic hassle of a patchbay plus a few wires...It nearly kills me and ruins my workflow like totally

I'll survive though

[Fred_Abstract]

about soundtoys , the bundle is one of the best bang for the buck to me ,it all come down from where you re coming from, some of their plugs can compare to some hardware wihtout shame that cost way way more.. it may still be not as good as some analog fxs, saturators, but it still sound decent in comparaison while many plug really fail

[whyterabbyt]

I don't think so I own a sherman filterbank show me an replacement in software. I wish I could sell my sherman and bought a software instead.

why? why would you be so convinced of the irreplaceability of something and yet actually want to replace it? utter insanity.

1st - At the moment a sherman filterbank is irreplaceable.
2nd - I want to replace it for obvious reason that working ITB is much more convenient.

'convenience' is for dilettantes.

[Compyfox]

I just saw this, and yes - it's pretty much beating the dead horse. Also, we do not know what you're after, but...

Won't denied that some of these plugins are great (beside the brainworx stuff). The Drop could maybe be a really good one - time will tell.

Brainworx is not aiming at creating emulations. Brainworx started out as hardware company with an idea and, to get the hardware "built on paper", they started going into the DSP realm.

To me, they do not(!) offer emulations, but usable studio tools.



But speaking of emulations:
There are tons of them by now.

Pretty much every other company is doing a port of SSL, NEVE, tape machines, guitar stomp boxes, etc.

For example:
The Serina Experiment (or TSE) created IMO one of the best software ports of the Sansamp Bass Driver DI.

Then there is Ignite Amps which ported some of their hardware into software form. Or in case of their most recent creation, the TSB-1 pedal, first the software, then the hardware.

The same happened with Waldorf years ago btw: the Waldorf Attack was first software, then hardware (Rack Attack). Which one of these creations are superior, lies in the eye of the beholder.


Then on to the Lexicon game. There are so many companies by now that try to port the LX2xx series, it's not even funny anymore.


I started a hardware emulation list years ago (which is now somewhat abandonned due to time constraints and HDD crashes), but it clearly showed that there are a sh*t-ton of emulations on the market. Ranging from excellent one ones to crap ones (ton of SE/SM creations that only slammed a similar GUI on the VST). Along with all bells and whistles (nouances, since each company measured an own device).


Take the Teletronix LA2A for example. How many creations are there on the market? I'm pretty sure I'll miss a couple of "renditions", but...

There is UAD, Cakewalk (in Sonar), Steinberg (in Cubase 7), IK Multimedia, Native Instruments (Vintage Compressor series), MellowMuse (esque), Waves (CLA), Antress (in his monster SE plugin drop), Line 6 PODfarm (the main compressor in there), I think there is an esque plugin in the "VIP Bundle" by Don't Crack, SKnote ported a similar design of a predecessor, Variety of Sound enhanced the LA with the ThrillseekerLA, etc.

And these are just a handful.

Same can be said for the Pultec EQ. Here we also have Waves, IK Multimedia, Ignite Amps, UAD, IIRC NI also got one by now, URS, Leftover Lasagne, PSP, G-Sonique (massively enhanced!)...



Speaking of G-Sonique:
They did it right with a port in my opinion. Why? Because they used the original Pultec Design and enhanced it. They put two devices together, offered control over the saturation, the input and output tubes, etc. Pity that they're still on Windows only.


But then again, what about developers like Variety of Sound? Or DMG Audio?

In terms of VoS, we have a developer that doesn't want to do ports, but pick up ideas of old hardware, and drastically enhance it's usability. Prime example is his BootEQmkII, the Baxxter Baxendall EQ, the Thrillseeker LA (control over the harmonics, range, sidechain control) - just to name some of the creations by the developer.

And DMG Audio? Formerly coding for Focusrite (and a handful of other companies), the developer said "funk it with classic EQ designs - let's look into the future). And out came EQuilibrium.



I understand the need or desire for a vintage module. May it be synthesizer or effect. But not every digital creation is bad.

It's just that like 10 years back, we barely had any affordable ones. Now we're swamped with them.


Get your head out of the sand and don't critisize the "lack" of realism. Learn how to use these tools efficiently instead. Until something better comes along.

Or ignore all that and go completely hardware purist. Your choice.

[trimph1]

I don't think so I own a sherman filterbank show me an replacement in software. I wish I could sell my sherman and bought a software instead.

why? why would you be so convinced of the irreplaceability of something and yet actually want to replace it? utter insanity.

1st - At the moment a sherman filterbank is irreplaceable.
2nd - I want to replace it for obvious reason that working ITB is much more convenient.

'convenience' is for dilettantes.

OI!!!! Stay out of my dilettantishness!!!!

[Ch00rD]

I always wondered what people do with that kind of music. I honestly wouldn't know what to do with it, and in fact, whether you're kidding or not.

Please also provide an example of what you'd do to it with a Sherman filterbank, and I'll see what I can do in a similar fashion with some UAD stuff.

I see you're more into that techno stuff,

Not necessarily, I like many vary different genres, but I hate modern (say, 80s and later) *pop* music in general.

but this is just an old unknown sample from the 80s.

Ah, I see. The cheesiness (imho) and quite poor sound quality made me wonder whether it was a joke. Just wanted to clear that up. I'm open both to attempts at good jokes or serious discussion.

What I wanna know is how UAD or other plugins would affect its sonic character so I can imagine what they would do to my own stuff.

Here's when I ran it through ToneBoosters:

http://home.no/dwaynie/tape/try_jeroen.mp3

And here through FerricTDS:

http://home.no/dwaynie/tape/try_ferric.mp3

Ah, then I guess you're looking for some after-the-fact, process-the-whole-mix (re)mastering-workflow type of tape saturation effect, I guess? I could put it through UAD's Ampex plug-in at various settings, perhaps some presets or very extreme settings to emphasise their character. Would that be helpful to you?

Fwiw, that is not what I use UAD plug-ins for myself, generally. I don't know much of how to use them to clean up (what I think is) a poor sound.

It is also quite different from the Sherman filterbank you were discussing earlier. If you'd like me to compare the UAD Moog MMF against that, perhaps provide a suitable source for that as well, e.g. some source material at decent quality (perhaps just a simple melody played with a raw saw wave) and example of what you'd do to it with the Sherman filter?

[zerocrossing]

All my reverb and delay effects are recorded in sacred caves. Beat that you analogue mavins

Peace out,
Andy..

Don't you find the caves a bit "cold?"

[valhallasound]

All my reverb and delay effects are recorded in sacred caves. Beat that you analogue mavins

A few years back, I went hiking with the family in a lava tube cave near Mount St. Helens. The cave extended 3/4 of a mile underground.

The reverb in the cave was...meh.

Seriously, it wasn't that impressive. I think that the volcanic rock might have been too porous, or maybe the silt on the cave floor brought the reverb time down too low.

Meanwhile, most concrete multi-story stairwells have a FANTASTIC reverb sound. Forget caves - give me a parking garage!

I need to write more archaeoacoustic blog posts. Those are a lot more fun than porting things to AAX.

Sean Costello

[AC222]

CompyFox really hit the nail on the head. I'm not a fan of all of them as tastes and opinions vary but many of the the ones he listed are incredibly realistic. I am going to second the Ignite and Serina Experiment stuff as sounding very realistic.

Also, I think for all around effects between eq, saturation, and maybe even compression now with Cupwise's Slick9k, compression, that the Nebula libraries come amazingly close to real hardware.

As to the original poster's question. I think that its hard to capture the harmonic content of real hardware properly but the ones I mentioned do this well as the algorithms of the Ignite and Serina Experiment are programmed with painstaking detail and the Nebula libraries are sampled to capture complex harmonics etc and also react in a dynamic fashion as opposed to static impulses.

[zerocrossing]

All my reverb and delay effects are recorded in sacred caves. Beat that you analogue mavins

A few years back, I went hiking with the family in a lava tube cave near Mount St. Helens. The cave extended 3/4 of a mile underground.

The reverb in the cave was...meh.

Seriously, it wasn't that impressive. I think that the volcanic rock might have been too porous, or maybe the silt on the cave floor brought the reverb time down too low.

Meanwhile, most concrete multi-story stairwells have a FANTASTIC reverb sound. Forget caves - give me a parking garage!

I need to write more archaeoacoustic blog posts. Those are a lot more fun than porting things to AAX.

Sean Costello

Isn't there a studio in NYC that uses it's elevator shaft with a mic mounted on the top of the elevator and a speaker at the top of the shaft as a variable sized chamber reverb? I seem to remember talk of this in the 80s...

[ZenPunkHippy]

Isn't there a studio in NYC that uses it's elevator shaft with a mic mounted on the top of the elevator and a speaker at the top of the shaft as a variable sized chamber reverb? I seem to remember talk of this in the 80s...

There is a band from Bristol, UK called Gravenhurst who did exactly that. I think they chose the location of the studio because the reverb in the elevator shaft sounded so amazing.

Here is one of their tracks if you want to explore ...



And while we're in Bristol, let's check out The Heads for some proper overdriven and very loud psych grunge ...

[brok landers]

... you might as well eschew ALL recorded music, because NO recording will ever come close to the real experience.

This is a fact for me also, 2 very different experiences...great point!
Sometimes though I just don't want to go to the club in my bathrobe and slippers so some nicely performed, mixed and mastered recorded music has to do...

+1. Live music compares to recorded music like sex compares to pr0n.

then i am a porn king. seriously, though i love live music (mixing a band live since 12 years now, around 50-60gigs a year), i often went to concerts where i thought i should just better go home and listen to the correctly produced and engineered recording, which results in a way better listening experience...

finally my take on all that emulation stuff:
i don't think that analog gear can be nailled bit by bit, just for the sake of its nature (though i admit that sone stuff is really damned close), but the more important thing is - i don't even care... there's just so much stuff out there that actually superceeds the originals, whithout us realizing it (i made blind tests with frinds for ages).
just an example - i made a sequenced bass that sounded so much like my juno 106 back in the days, i wouldn't believe it - and it wasn't even an emulation, but zebra (in this case)... i compressed the shit out of my snare, and i was swearing i heard my dynamite working, but it was the cheapest freeware comressor out there...
granted, there is some analog stuff out there old and new, that just sounds unbelievable good (the hi end of the eq on the harrison console that we have in the studio i resided for years made my dick go nuts all the time), but all in all, there's more possibilities and more high quality _ever_ since we can work itb... and we can uses the units until our cpu bogs down...

the last emulation i would love to see though (as it still is my absolute favourite synth ever), is the oberheim matrix12, and i assume we won't see thatone anytime soon accurately modelled, due to its very nature... even there's quite a big part of it digital...