Matching chords with your bass line

[Mike20]

Hey,

I am learning theory quite a bit now but one thing that i am struggling to get past is putting it in to practise in regards to matching chords to my bassline,

Basically what i mean, often i make a baseline first, here is a very basic example :

http://www53.zippyshare.com/v/50589543/file.html



The notes contain, F, D#, A#, G#, the first & most repeated note being F

Now i would start with this element, so write it first, before i began to learn theory i would typically take the root note of my bassline (so for example F in this case) and use that as the 'key' of my chords (major or minor depending on what feel i was going for), e.g i would begin the root note of my chords with F then build a progression from there,

However what i have now learnt (correct me if i am wrong), is that this is 'incorrect', the F has nothing to do with the key of my song, because the notes contained make up the key of F# Major (taking in to account that the F i mentioned would be called E#), they also make up G# Major,

So does this mean that when i come to write my chords, the correct key of my track would be either F# Major or G# Major? And does this mean i have a choice?

Or does the scale of my bassline have nothing to do with how i write my chords? I ask this because sometimes i put a chord over the baseline like zedd does @ 2.34 -

Apologies if the question is a bit more complex to how i have interpreted it, but because when i start with a bassline like this, i always get stuck at the chord section wondering what flexibility i have in my chords

Thank you for any help!

Mike

[Gamma-UT]

Your bassline is probably best suited to F minor. So, you'd be better off thinking as those other notes as flats, not sharps.

[jancivil]

(correct me if i am wrong), is that this is 'incorrect', the F has nothing to do with the key of my song, because the notes contained make up the key of F# Major (taking in to account that the F i mentioned would be called E#), they also make up G# Major,

Being able to hear it is important, so I did.
in this case, the prevalence of F does mean F is your tonic. so while it may be more complicated than that, here it isn't. It isn't even really 'F minor', so far you have four notes. I think the note 'C' can be assumed safely in addition; so the 'scale' of your bassline here is 'minor penatonic' on F. You may not find all of 'F minor' useful for this
(while 'scales' go to seven notes generally, this might not).

These notes, per the <F tonic> (and in music like this, *such* a prevalence of F means F is a pretty good bet for the tonic) are F Ab Bb [C] Eb. Compare to F minor, spelled in a row F G Ab etc. IE: F to G# is the interval of a second, ie., two consecutive letter names. An augmented second in fact, which is 'more complicated' than this simple minor third [F-Ab] in a minor mode; so we spell it correctly.

You have more information that you know what to do with which can be confusing. As far as deriving chords from this it might be more suitable at this moment to trial and error things by ear from the notes you have (plus perhaps that C in addition to those four strikes you as obviously safe enough) rather than glom theory concepts onto this, which in such a case don't need to apply. Additionally, just because there *are* chords doesn't amount to their necessity in music per se. EG: "a chord over the baseline like zedd does []". Not so much actually. There are notes beyond simply doubling the line but chords aren't really what happens there.

[JumpingJackFlash]

often i make a baseline first

This is probably not a good idea, it's like writing the first chapter of a book before you know what your story's going to be.

Writing chords and writing the bass line should go hand in hand; they go together. If you must do one first, then writing the chords first is much easier, but the best approach is to do them at the same time.

i would typically take the root note of my bassline (so for example F in this case) and use that as the 'key' of my chords (major or minor depending on what feel i was going for), e.g i would begin the root note of my chords with F then build a progression from there,

Lots of confusion here.
Learn the difference between key, scale, root and tonic.

the F has nothing to do with the key of my song, because the notes contained make up the key of F# Major (taking in to account that the F i mentioned would be called E#), they also make up G# Major,

Just because a bass line contains the note F does not mean that F has anything to do with the key.

In addition to the note F, you have the notes G#, D# and A# if using sharps, OR Ab, Eb and Bb if using flats.
What you need to be familiar with here is the order of flats and the order of sharps. See my post on Sharps, Flats and how to work out Keys.

F# is the first sharp, you can't have D# and A# without first having F# (well, you can, but let's just stick with basic diatonic stuff first). Since you have several F-naturals, then other sharps are unlikely.

On the other hand, you have the first three flats here. - The notes are therefore much more likely to be flats than sharps.

What key? - Well, there are a number of possibilities.
If F feels like "home" to you, then it's probably in F minor (this is likely considering the prominence of the note F). - But that bass could work in other keys too.

does this mean i have a choice?

There is always a choice, it's just that some possibilities are more likely than others.

when i start with a bassline like this, i always get stuck at the chord section

As I said, this is why it's a good idea to write bass and chords at the same time.

[jancivil]

often i make a baseline first

This is probably not a good idea, it's like writing the first chapter of a book before you know what your story's going to be.

I guess you didn't go to hear this? What you say here assumes that chords are a necessity. Why?

Mike20 wrote:
when i start with a bassline like this, i always get stuck at the chord section

"As I said, this is why it's a good idea to write bass and chords at the same time."

This is riff-based music, the bassline is a perfectly good place to start. I'm not hearing chords there. I think chords in that and his other example are not necessarily going to improve what it is and could just be clutter.

This is where asking after knowledge [through 'music theory'] via the internet is fraught with problems. You've giving advice based in assumptions out of what you prefer to talk about.

[JumpingJackFlash]

You've giving advice based in assumptions out of what you prefer to talk about.

Actually, I'm giving advice based on what was asked in the OP, which was a question specifically about chords.

Now I agree, chords are not always necessary, although it depends on your definition of "chord". An awareness of harmony, in the loosest sense, will help the OP choose notes for the other parts. It doesn't have to be block chords of course.

Although I also agree that asking questions like this on the Internet is "fraught with problems".

[tapper mike]

Oh how I miss the music theory forum here not..

[jancivil]

"If you must do one first, then writing the chords first is much easier, but the best approach..."
might be no such approach at all. We have someone that is relying on reading to have a shot at what to do next.

here evidently 'writing the chords first' isn't easier, as he doesn't have enough basis for that. anyway, I want to hear a thing before I think to advise. I'm not sure why 'the chord section' is necessary out of what I have to go on, other than the notion of chords itself.

[Sendy]

Before I knew theory basics I'd just bash on the keyboard until something stuck. Your brain will soon notice patterns for what tends to work and what doesn't. Especially for chords holding down "random" clusters of notes until one of them sounded good. If you've got an ear for music and ideas then certain combinations of notes will just speak to you. Then move one or two of the notes to make your next chord, until you get a new chord that matches your other foundations.

Once you have a bassline or hook I honestly don't believe you need to apply any theory, just listen out for what sounds good and be willing to hear yourself make a few mistakes. If something sounds bad but you can't put your finger on why, that's what got me into theory. I could write music by ear without it and the theory was just for correcting amateurish sounding flaws such as notes that clash or weak modulations. Especially if you're making music based on loops with no real harmonic changes or progressions (which is most electronic music), theory can be kept to a minimum at first.

Truth is, starter-outers know what notes sound bad and what don't. They could correct their own mistakes fairly easily if they just develop the ability to trust their ears and be honest with themselves. How many times did I catch myself trying to ignore these little niggles thinking "No, it sounds fine!" when deep down somethig was jarring me.

Starting out writing music in a sea of stiff music theory rules often leads to very staid, obvious music. The most obvious example is someone I knew who made drum and bass without any music knowledge besides knowing note names, octaves, etc. When he learned about keys and scales, he was tuning every element in his track to be the root note, and his riffs ect actually got WORSE than when he knew NOTHING about music theory (beyond some trifling basics). Feel your way first and use ever advancing theory knowlede to fix the problems and guide the maturity of your music.

YMMV, that's just my feelings on the matter.

[jancivil]

Starting out writing music in a sea of stiff music theory rules often leads to very staid, obvious music. The most obvious example is someone I knew who made drum and bass without any music knowledge besides knowing note names, octaves, etc. When he learned about keys and scales, he was tuning every element in his track to be the root note, and his riffs ect actually got WORSE than when he knew NOTHING about music theory (beyond some trifling basics). Feel your way first...

I agree. I have said it too many times, but the cart isn't made to pull the horse.

[mjuhl]

Try using a mixture chords from F minor and F dorian to start. In no particular order: Fm, Bb, Bbm, Db, Ab, Eb, Gm, Cm, C (if you're careful of the potential minor 9th clash). These are all chords that don't "conflict" with your bass line and give you a good starting point.

[Mike20]

Thank you all for the responses,

I would quote all replies individually but this post would be pages long if i did,

Just a couple of things first,

I was talking about that being my bass line, then after say 16 bars of that, there is a bridge of say just some basic FX then my chords, the only interaction my chords would have with the bass line is when they are being filtered out and the bass filtered back in in the build up section (or if i decided to try work them over my 'drop' part in the second half of the track - but that isn't completely necessary)

@Sendy - It's where you say play around and what sounds good is that's knocking my confidence at the moment, the reason why i say this is if you imagine i write that bass line i just have, then i have a breakdown, so that bass is completely cut off and done with for the duration of the breakdown, now i want to write a nice chord section in my breakdown that is related to the drop, in the same key or tonally related so it sounds 'correct' so to speak'.. But where my confuses comes is that the root and most used note in my bass line is F, however it contains notes that are nothing to do with neither the F major or minor scale, so when i begin to write my chords, i don't know what key to write them in, what root note to use or just generally where to start. If i knew that i had written the key of my bass line in say G# Major (because the notes i have written correspond to that of the G# Major scale) then i could write chords in G# Major, but this is where my confusion/ lack of knowledge comes in

But anyway there is a tonne of information in this post for me to read and hopefully learn the answer to my question from, so i'm going to study it now,

Thanks again!

Mike

[JumpingJackFlash]

where my confuses comes is that the root and most used note in my bass line is F, however it contains notes that are nothing to do with neither the F major or minor scale

As already said, all the notes in your bass line are contained within F minor (that makes F the tonic, not the root).

[Mike20]

Yeah sorry about the repost there JJF, i had read the topic but hadn't 'studied' it so to speak,

Going over it now some really great info in here,

Thanks again

Mike

[someone called simon]

My 2c worth is that your original post indicated a clash between "a little knowledge" (attempting to place those notes you had on a predefined scale) and what your ear is telling you... the predominance of F, leading F to sound like home. Maybe F minor, or an F blues scale where major and minor 3rds might be present (look up the hendrix chord as quick example of hearing both notes played in one chord).

Something that might be fun to do is combine a little of both. So, you can hear F is predominant. What chords feature F?

1... all the F's obviusly. so, F major, F minor, F 7, F minor 7.... the 'hendrix chord' F7#9. try a whole bunch...

2... the chord of Bb has F as its 5th, so experiment with throwing some variations of that in too, in combination with the above..

3... there are some chords that feature F as the 3rd... so theres Dm, where F is the minor 3rd, and C#, where F is the major 3rd. some interesting sounds if you try some of those over an F bass...

4... other chords that will fit, like Eb, or C or Ab. or Gm, or even Gmajor... Which brings me to the point of admitting that nearly any chord can go over a given bass note, depending on context and intent. What sounds good to you?

So I've just picked on the F note, that you mentioned as being the most frequent. You had other notes mentioned in your riff, which will probably sound nasty with some of the chords mentioned above. But then, they might sound nasty in a good way.

As a suggestion, here's a sequence of chords you could play over the F bass, whcih will sound interesting, and give you an idea of what I'm talking about. (in general keep the chord notes as simple triads, a few octaves above the bass, initially at least, to hear the relationships.

F major / C# major / Dm / Eb / Ab / G major / Bb / C / F

So you're using some theory to work out what chords may have potential, chords that you may not have thought of using initially. Then play through till you find some, and some sequence of them, that sounds good. Your ear should be the ultimate judge, but using the thought/theory process might take you some places you wouldn't have gone naturally...