KVR Audio

Gamma-UT · Post by **Gamma-UT** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:25 am

olikana wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
nexusdawn wrote:p.s. Circuit modeling has been around for years... e.g. waves ssl, dcam synthsquad, nothing new there... new to native maybe (maybe they got some help from softube?)
Circuit modeling does not equate to zero feedback delay filters.
in a sense it does cos circuits traNsmit their information almost instantly ..in a delayless way. the out-in transmission (feedback) is instantaneous in circuits.
so anyone to be claiming circuit modelling should be working in the nanoseconds and not in the 1 sample territory which does not apply in any way to circuit behaviour.

Analogue circuits have delay. They do not have infinite bandwidth. Quite a few opamps and similar circuits used in classic synths can have very slow responses compared to more recent amps. The LM358, for example, which I believe gets a fair amount of use in audio circuitry takes 10 microseconds to go full swing (eg 0->5V or so). That's a lot longer than nanoseconds and not all that much higher a frequency than standard audio sample rates. But it's enough.

nexusdawn · Post by **nexusdawn** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:41 am

EvilDragon wrote:
nexusdawn wrote:p.s. Circuit modeling has been around for years... e.g. waves ssl, dcam synthsquad, nothing new there... new to native maybe (maybe they got some help from softube?)
Circuit modeling does not equate to zero feedback delay filters.

And zero feedback delay filters aren't anything new either...

Just because native makes a cool promotion video and makes bold claims on their site, doesn't make this anymore "ground breaking" than other synths that have been around for years...

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:42 am

nexusdawn wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
nexusdawn wrote:p.s. Circuit modeling has been around for years... e.g. waves ssl, dcam synthsquad, nothing new there... new to native maybe (maybe they got some help from softube?)
Circuit modeling does not equate to zero feedback delay filters.

And zero feedback delay filters aren't anything new either...

You obviously missed why they are not new - who first developed them?

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:54 am

content moved.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:55 am

olikana wrote:in a sense it does cos circuits traNsmit their information almost instantly ..in a delayless way. the out-in transmission (feedback) is instantaneous in circuits.
so anyone to be claiming circuit modelling should be working in the nanoseconds and not in the 1 sample territory which does not apply in any way to circuit behaviour.

No, it doesn't. As Gamma-UT said, there's nothing delayless in analog circuits. There is time necessary for current to pass the circuit, and in a lot of cases it's not really nanoseconds.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:34 am

deleted

fluxmind · Post by **fluxmind** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:07 pm

True Zero-Delay-Feedback has only few synths like Diva, Monark, Uno, Oxium(other xils don't sound like they have it).
Zero is Zero and others don't do Zero

what whey do is just simply mimicking a way in which resonance respond to filter cutoff and then say that they have it for years, in that case sylenth has it too for years now, but once you start to abuse it, you realise that it's all bullsh*t

then you have other end in which you hear, hey it doesn't matter, listeners don't care, lets make music, all it matters is how it sounds and how f**king many instances I can load to make myself sound like pure sh*t, like Avicci or whatever

That other end constantly stifles all the progress being made in DSP, and I believe (that's my opinion) that most Devs do hate Urs for venturing to realise a CPU hog with ZDF, because most users liked it, regardless of the CPU and then pr**ks like me put non-ZDF synths to sh*t.
True f**king artists are narcissists and only care about themselves and their tools and not about a bunch of sheep which don't care how that art was made, so that other end is more concerned with sheep than their art.
Go ahead, hate me plastic fellows

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:10 pm

deleted

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:14 pm

Fanboys....

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:18 pm

fluxmind wrote:True Zero-Delay-Feedback has only few synths like Diva, Monark, Uno, Oxium(other xils don't sound like they have it).

OT : Well, all Xils have 0df filters. Oxium have the last generation algos. ( Synthix too for the very meaninngfull part of it )

Iirc Corona get some kind of 0df filters too in some of the recent updates. And maybe some others. ( Saurus ? )

But a synth is more than just that, of course.

Back to topic : Nice to have a Monark thread again

LtZ

Gamma-UT · Post by **Gamma-UT** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:34 pm

fluxmind wrote:True Zero-Delay-Feedback has only few synths like Diva, Monark, Uno, Oxium(other xils don't sound like they have it).
Zero is Zero and others don't do Zero what whey do is just simply mimicking a way in which resonance respond to filter cutoff and then say that they have it for years, in that case sylenth has it too for years now, but once you start to abuse it, you realise that it's all bullsh*t

The marketing spiel has evidently worked well. If zero means zero, why are there different quality modes in Diva? Why are the implementations of each of these synths and others detectably different?

fluxmind wrote:True f**king artists are narcissists and only care about themselves and their tools and not about a bunch of sheep which don't care how that art was made, so that other end is more concerned with sheep than their art.

Um, no. Artists love to create. They'll do it with mud and a stick if that's all they've got to hand*.

*QooC, here we come.

nexusdawn · Post by **nexusdawn** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:18 pm

aMUSEd wrote:
nexusdawn wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
nexusdawn wrote:p.s. Circuit modeling has been around for years... e.g. waves ssl, dcam synthsquad, nothing new there... new to native maybe (maybe they got some help from softube?)
Circuit modeling does not equate to zero feedback delay filters.

And zero feedback delay filters aren't anything new either...
You obviously missed why they are not new - who first developed them?

No I didn't miss it, like you and others I've read Natives marketing machine release. Unlike you and some others I don't invest emotional stake into their marketing and let it bias what a synth Ultimately sounds like.

As I said zere delay filters have been used before, so nothing groundbreaking.

Hope you can live with that.

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:05 pm

nexusdawn wrote:
aMUSEd wrote:
nexusdawn wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
nexusdawn wrote:p.s. Circuit modeling has been around for years... e.g. waves ssl, dcam synthsquad, nothing new there... new to native maybe (maybe they got some help from softube?)
Circuit modeling does not equate to zero feedback delay filters.

And zero feedback delay filters aren't anything new either...
You obviously missed why they are not new - who first developed them?

No I didn't miss it, like you and others I've read Natives marketing machine release. Unlike you and some others I don't invest emotional stake into their marketing and let it bias what a synth Ultimately sounds like.

As I said zere delay filters have been used before, so nothing groundbreaking.

Hope you can live with that.

You are making presumptions, no one is investing any "emotional stake" in NI marketing, nor does it influence my feelings about what a synth sounds like, that is absurd and patronising! If anything NI were foolishly late to market the technology and let several other companies take the lead but no one denies that the first fully worked out theoretical description of such filters was in Vadim Zavalishin's paper, yes there were no doubt earlier papers that alluded to certain aspects of such technology, no idea is totally new, but he is still credited.

fluxmind · Post by **fluxmind** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:49 pm

Gamma-UT wrote:
The marketing spiel has evidently worked well. If zero means zero, why are there different quality modes in Diva? Why are the implementations of each of these synths and others detectably different?

*QooC, here we come.

I used a name Zero to describe all methods used to implement ZDF, versus just trying to make resonance to track filter cutoff to save CPU.
Sylenth probably use some tracking, because if you take a look at that provided test, it may occur to you, that almost all synths have ZDF

Because ZDF is all about resonance behaviour regarding cutoff position

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:11 pm

fluxmind wrote: Sylenth probably use some tracking, because if you take a look at that provided test, it may occur to you, that almost all synths have ZDF
Because ZDF is all about resonance behaviour regarding cutoff position

At the end it's all about the resulting sound which is not only based on having 0df filters or not.
Several synths that i personally really like (e.g. Saurus, Monark, U-NO-LX, Oxium, Synthix) do involve a 0df filter design. This does not mean i only like them based on the fact that they include this kind of feature. Many sounds i like on those include only few or no Resonance where 0df filters do not seem to be really relevant.

Ingo

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