About Monark - reviews & stuff

[Gamma-UT]

I used a name Zero to describe all methods used to implement ZDF, versus just trying to make resonance to track filter cutoff to save CPU.

Is that before or after inverting polarity via the flux capacitor?

Sylenth probably use some tracking, because if you take a look at that provided test, it may occur to you, that almost all synths have ZDF
Because ZDF is all about resonance behaviour regarding cutoff position

And there was me thinking it's about finding the current value of the node that connects the output of an op amp to the input of a negative and/or positive feedback loop.

[fluxmind]

And there was me thinking it's about finding the current value of the node that connects the output of an op amp to the input of a negative and/or positive feedback loop.

and there were you bored and maybe lonely
End result of ZDF is that it affects behaviour of resonance, but if you feel bored, feel free to keep your word wars endeavour

[olikana]

it's all very well here poeple telling me that there are circuits with very slow responses...but in a 24db ladder the feedback is almost instant.
and here were are discussing the filter. are we not not??? it's the filter that is advertised as zero delay feedback!!
so you need to be within the nanoseconds to deliver it's sound correctly.
if the zero delay feeback filter definition upsets someone then call it nanoseconds delay feedback filter. or nearzero feedback delay filter.
doesn't change that the 1 sample approach is too sluggish and totally unrelated to the circuit modelling.

btw the first to introduce a plugin based on 0dff was UAD on their DSP cards.
the first one in native form was u-he DIVA

xilss claims that all of its synths were 0dff but till oxium they certainly didn't get right. if since then they went back and updated their older products with 0df i wouldn't know. but at the time they didd't deliver.
also it's a mistery why in a thread opened by me 3 years ago titled "any synth with no filter feedbback lag?" both him and xavier entered the thread and partecipated but not any of them mentioned there that their synths had it.
the only one of the many devlopers that responded who had a clue and said to be working on it was Urs ,1 year before the release of Diva .

[Ingonator]

xilss claims that all of its synths were 0dff but till oxium they certainly didn't get right. if since then they went back and updated their older products with 0df i wouldn't know. but at the time they didd't deliver.
also it's a mistery why in a thread opened by me 3 years ago titled "any synth with no filter feedbback lag?" both him and xavier entered the thread and partecipated but not any of them mentioned there that their synths had it.
the only one of the many devlopers that responded who had a clue and said to be working on it was Urs ,1 year before the release of Diva .

http://www.xils-lab.com/pages/Zero-Dela ... lters.html

Just found this (besides the page for the test which was already known) and this seems to be less "scientific" than most other articles and tries to show the effect of 0df filters on the sound. In those videos they seemed to use Synthix (BTW Oxium indeed got an improved version of the 0df filter in Synthix).

This is the test at the Xils page:
http://www.xils-lab.com/pages/How-to-te ... ilter.html

Those are my own results for Monark and PolyKB II:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53230726/IW_Mo ... st%201.pdf

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53230726/PolyK ... st%201.pdf

Maybe a combination of this and some self-oscillation tests like in the other Xils Lab page could lead to a foolproof test for 0df filter behavior.

The Self-oscillation in Monark seems to sound quite nice and some patches in the free bank i provided seem to use it (those use only the filter as a sound source). With PolyKb II, Synthix and Oxium i could get nice results for the self-resonance too.
The Self-oscillation in TAL U-NO-LX is very nice too. It does not sound really "ear-piercing" and you could nicely adjust the pitch with the Cutoff amount. "PLaying" with the Cutoff slider/knob you could get some "Theremin" like sounds without using an oscillator.


Ingo

[olikana]

xilss claims that all of its synths were 0dff but till oxium they certainly didn't get right. if since then they went back and updated their older products with 0df i wouldn't know. but at the time they didd't deliver.
also it's a mistery why in a thread opened by me 3 years ago titled "any synth with no filter feedbback lag?" both him and xavier entered the thread and partecipated but not any of them mentioned there that their synths had it.
the only one of the many devlopers that responded who had a clue and said to be working on it was Urs ,1 year before the release of Diva .

http://www.xils-lab.com/pages/Zero-Dela ... lters.html

Just found this (besides the page for the test which was already known) and this seems to be less "scientific" than most other articles and tries to show the effect of 0df filters on the sound.

that article was realeased MONTHS after the release of Diva and was posted on this forum already.
and it is no better than toilet paper.

So this won't be heard DIRECTLY, and it's especially important to notice that this won't be involved in the modulation response or the envelope sharpness (an analogical envelope doesn't go below 0.1 ms or something like that which corresponds to around 4/5 sample at 44.1 kHz ).

they even failed to understand musicians concerns and the importance it would have. and it's difficult to even understand what point they are trying to make in that article.
who gives a shit about "directly" when people were reporting issues with filter modulation ....and who cares about envelope specifics when the filter is under scrutiny and not the envelope (digital envelopes were always fine as far as i'm concerned).

matter of the fact is filter lag DOES get exposed with a punchy or tight modulation setting and resonace above 40% .
all the funk (the impact) and analogness of the sound gets sucked out and coated in plastick (effect of the smearing).
the difference is not huge but enough to be off putting to the ear.
for trance and other genres would not matter much....but for the 80s electropop funky sound i go for 0dff is vital.

[olikana]

returning back to the topic (everyone 's talking about 0dff and noones posting reviews?)

my review 9.5/10
monark in terms of 0dff doesn't do anything new. the ladder filter is practically identical to the one in diva (they model the same thing after all).
it's biggest achievement is the feedback/load combo which gives an amazing distortion (not present in diva and I never heard in software anything as juicy)
and the FM, probably the best sounding analog FM yet in software. if my ears serve me right i would say spot on.
everything else sounds pretty much the same (different values but easily adjusted if you know what you're doing). only minor differences i note in pink noise (a bit more boomy) and square wave (which i morphed to better match )...but if it wasn't for the great overload and FM i wouldn't bother keepin it already owning diva.

-0,5 cos of the lack of a poly option! i don't care if it's too cpu intnesive...just put it in the backpanel for who can afford it in terms of cpu. even a 4 polyphony would be golden.

conclusion: native instrument finally deliver an emulation that actually sounds like the real deal. and the price is right.

[Ingonator]

returning back to the topic (everyone 's talking about 0dff and noones posting reviews?)

I posted a very long post with my opinion and different informations on page 2 of this thread which is based on my experience while doing and optimizing patches for Monark.
I also pointed out my POV at my own Monark thread, especially at the last page of it (that one with my patches and demos).


Ingo

[hibidy]

You guys are WAY too advanced for me. I only care about two things: does it work, does it sound good when it works.

So far, it does both.

[keyman_sam]

You guys are WAY too advanced for me. I only care about two things: does it work, does it sound good when it works.

So far, it does both.

+1

Who the fack cares about ZDF? Seriously. If it sounds good, use it.

[miedex]

I remember doing speed when I was younger and getting really obsessed about a topic for like 12 hours. These types of threads gives KVR that meth binge feeling. You guys are running around this topic like chickens with their heads cut off.

[Ingonator]

You guys are WAY too advanced for me. I only care about two things: does it work, does it sound good when it works.

So far, it does both.

I was really not interested in that kind of discussion (again...) and you could have a look at my long post at page 2 about my opinon on Monark, my own Monark patches, some audio demos and several other stuff.

Anyway somehow with every new synth that uses 0df filters this kind of dicussion is coming up and it usually ends with comparisons to Diva.


Ingo

[Kriminal]

The settings that make 0DF 'useful' are so rarely used here, it makes no diff to me if a synth has it or not.

Emperors new filter.

[Kriminal]

You guys are WAY too advanced for me. I only care about two things: does it work, does it sound good when it works.

So far, it does both.

I was really not interested in that kind of discussion (again...) and you could have a look at my long post at page 2 about my opinon on Monark, my own Monark patches, some audio demos and several other stuff.

Anyway somehow with every new synth that uses 0df filters this kind of dicussion is coming up and it usually ends with comparisons to Diva.


Ingo

Do you actually READ what you are quoting? Your answer has absolutely NOTHING to do with what he said

Spam Troll

[Ingonator]

Do you actually READ what you are quoting? Your answer has absolutely NOTHING to do with what he said

Spam Troll

Sure i was reading his post. I wanted to say that originally i did not enter this thread to dicuss about 0df filters again. Anyway i tried to involve into that dicussion which i already regret as this usually leads to endless discussions.
I am currently deleting some of my posts concerning 0df filters to clean this up a bit.

I am also no "Spam Troll", i am just someone interested in Monark and likes it very much.


And even if i misunderstood him and answered in a wrong way why is it up to you to comment on that?


Ingo

[nix808]

Ingo seems cool, Krim.
I think he has salient points in his posts.
The last thing he is here is a spiced ham bearing troll.

nway, I have now 0d filters in Monark,
sounds cool,
a lot like my hardware DCO analog Cheetah MS6

I'm not sure about transient smearing,
I haven't a good enough ear it seems.

Gonna really spend some time playing with Monark when(if ) I can get my own plugs going.