Echoplex VST
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
iterruptor.ch also has a couple other delays worth looking into - Bionic Delay has been my fave all time delay and the warped tape preset puts some random goodness into the feedback. Not saying it's an echoplex emulation - I never have used one, but it seems that warped tape sound is one of the goals so it's worth having a look. I'll have to check out the King Tao thing.
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Brian @ IK Multimedia Brian @ IK Multimedia https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=249743
- KVRian
- 1042 posts since 6 Feb, 2011
Ch00rD, PM me your email address and I'll look up and review your support tickets.
It sounds like this is an issue specific to your system, as "zipper noise" is not typical with any IK plugins.
On a different note, you can't do a proper Echoplex emulation with a "tape speed" control. The tape speed of an Echoplex is fixed, but the record head is not. This is key to the Echoplex sound. You can move the record head while it is recording, which is what gives the time-warping effects. It is actually recorded to the tape that way, and then played back on the fixed playback head. The VOLUME control mixes the ratio of live input to tape playback in the output, which is then mixed back into the record input at a volume set with the SUSTAIN control, letting you warp the sound even more with each record pass. You can actually set the feedback volume higher than the input volume, which can create some truly out of control effects. Unlike infinite feedback loops in other systems, the Echoplex feedback never becomes dangerous, because it is limited by the natural saturation ceiling of the tape.
It sounds like this is an issue specific to your system, as "zipper noise" is not typical with any IK plugins.
On a different note, you can't do a proper Echoplex emulation with a "tape speed" control. The tape speed of an Echoplex is fixed, but the record head is not. This is key to the Echoplex sound. You can move the record head while it is recording, which is what gives the time-warping effects. It is actually recorded to the tape that way, and then played back on the fixed playback head. The VOLUME control mixes the ratio of live input to tape playback in the output, which is then mixed back into the record input at a volume set with the SUSTAIN control, letting you warp the sound even more with each record pass. You can actually set the feedback volume higher than the input volume, which can create some truly out of control effects. Unlike infinite feedback loops in other systems, the Echoplex feedback never becomes dangerous, because it is limited by the natural saturation ceiling of the tape.
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- KVRian
- 777 posts since 13 Dec, 2011
That's exactly the nonsense answer I received last time I reported these issues, when I also PM'ed my email address to one of your colleagues. I'll do so again, as I still hope some day you guys will actually take a *serious* look at these issues.Brian @ IK Multimedia wrote:Ch00rD, PM me your email address and I'll look up and review your support tickets.
It sounds like this is an issue specific to your system, as "zipper noise" is not typical with any IK plugins.
[...].
As I have told IKM reps before, I have repeatedly tried this on various systems, operating systems, and hosts, and I consistently get the same result: IK Multimedia plug-ins making zipper noise whenever I change parameters such as volume, pan, etc. while playing a sound, as there does not seem to be any smoothing / interpolation applied. This is also very clearly visible on an oscilloscope, when changing e.g. the input volume.
Since you also tell me it's specific to my system, I'll also ask again: please show me a video with sound where doing the same thing I do (i.e. change parameters while playing a simple sine wave), but without any zipper noise. I still haven't ever seen any IKM plug-ins work properly, on *any* system, and IKM has so far failed to prove that assumption (while it would be *very* easy to do so, if you're actually right. Since none of you guys has ever attempted to address that question, while I have clearly demonstrated the issue, your answer is simply not credible at all. Here's my latest attempt, which of course utterly fails (exactly like Amplitube fails). Now please show me yours, or stop telling me it's an issue specific to my system(s).
And should I perhaps take your complete silence on the other issues I mentioned as an acknowledgement? I'll show you an illustrative example: I have placed the 'Classic Equalizer' in Slot 1A, and assigned its controls for automation. Doing so, I have already ran out of parameter automation slots, before I even got to assign all parameters of this single effect; you may notice there is no room left for the 'Q' settings in the pic below:

So if I would now insert a Tape Echo in another slot, there simply is no way to automate any of its parameters, not even using MIDI - or I would have to give up automating the other effect. Now, you can of course tell me to use another instance, but then what's the use of having 12 effect slots? Seriously, what the #### were you guys thinking when you designed this 'system'?
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- KVRAF
- 1622 posts since 10 Jul, 2006 from Paris, France
Just saying that maybe you should use the "Single" version of the Echoplex for automating it.Ch00rD wrote:That's exactly the nonsense answer I received last time I reported these issues, when I also PM'ed my email address to one of your colleagues. I'll do so again, as I still hope some day you guys will actually take a *serious* look at these issues.Brian @ IK Multimedia wrote:Ch00rD, PM me your email address and I'll look up and review your support tickets.
It sounds like this is an issue specific to your system, as "zipper noise" is not typical with any IK plugins.
[...].
As I have told IKM reps before, I have repeatedly tried this on various systems, operating systems, and hosts, and I consistently get the same result: IK Multimedia plug-ins making zipper noise whenever I change parameters such as volume, pan, etc. while playing a sound, as there does not seem to be any smoothing / interpolation applied. This is also very clearly visible on an oscilloscope, when changing e.g. the input volume.
Since you also tell me it's specific to my system, I'll also ask again: please show me a video with sound where doing the same thing I do (i.e. change parameters while playing a simple sine wave), but without any zipper noise. I still haven't ever seen any IKM plug-ins work properly, on *any* system, and IKM has so far failed to prove that assumption (while it would be *very* easy to do so, if you're actually right. Since none of you guys has ever attempted to address that question, while I have clearly demonstrated the issue, your answer is simply not credible at all. Here's my latest attempt, which of course utterly fails (exactly like Amplitube fails). Now please show me yours, or stop telling me it's an issue specific to my system(s).
And should I perhaps take your complete silence on the other issues I mentioned as an acknowledgement? I'll show you an illustrative example: I have placed the 'Classic Equalizer' in Slot 1A, and assigned its controls for automation. Doing so, I have already ran out of parameter automation slots, before I even got to assign all parameters of this single effect; you may notice there is no room left for the 'Q' settings in the pic below:
So if I would now insert a Tape Echo in another slot, there simply is no way to automate any of its parameters, not even using MIDI - or I would have to give up automating the other effect. Now, you can of course tell me to use another instance, but then what's the use of having 12 effect slots? Seriously, what the #### were you guys thinking when you designed this 'system'?
Note that the "Singles" are available after purchase, not when you run the DEMO version.
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Brian @ IK Multimedia Brian @ IK Multimedia https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=249743
- KVRian
- 1042 posts since 6 Feb, 2011
Ch00rD,
The behavior you're seeing in those .movs is not typical. I've never seen it before, and am unable at this point to reproduce it. I will definitely elevate your case to the development team, to see if they can get to the bottom of it.
This is the best I can do for you on short notice, but you should be able to see and hear that there is no noise normally associated with tweaking knobs in AmpliTube or T-RackS.
Regarding the assignable automation controls, this is designed this way for AmpliTube and T-RackS out of necessity, because we simply are unable to have fixed parameters, since the composition of the plugins changes completely, depending on what models you have loaded in which slots. AmpliTube and T-RackS master shell become totally different plugins every time the gear is swapped out.
The full T-RackS master shell was designed primarily with operating as a standalone mastering application in mind. T-RackS has individual plugins for each model in the suite which use the standard fixed parameter automation scheme - because in this circumstance, they can. The limited number of automatable parameters in the T-RackS master shell has not been an issue, since most users choose to use the individual plugins in their VST hosts.
The behavior you're seeing in those .movs is not typical. I've never seen it before, and am unable at this point to reproduce it. I will definitely elevate your case to the development team, to see if they can get to the bottom of it.
This is the best I can do for you on short notice, but you should be able to see and hear that there is no noise normally associated with tweaking knobs in AmpliTube or T-RackS.
Regarding the assignable automation controls, this is designed this way for AmpliTube and T-RackS out of necessity, because we simply are unable to have fixed parameters, since the composition of the plugins changes completely, depending on what models you have loaded in which slots. AmpliTube and T-RackS master shell become totally different plugins every time the gear is swapped out.
The full T-RackS master shell was designed primarily with operating as a standalone mastering application in mind. T-RackS has individual plugins for each model in the suite which use the standard fixed parameter automation scheme - because in this circumstance, they can. The limited number of automatable parameters in the T-RackS master shell has not been an issue, since most users choose to use the individual plugins in their VST hosts.
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- KVRian
- 777 posts since 13 Dec, 2011
Thanks for your response, Brian.
Still, at 1:37 in the first video, I clearly hear some zipper noise when the control is adjusted (and I'm not talking about the little pop when switching the module on or off). So you just seem to have confirmed my point: this is not a specific issue to my system at all. Indeed, let's get this to the developers to fix, and please take your time to get to the bottom of it, no hurries. I completely understand that there isn't much more you can do on short notice.
). "Necessity" does not seem to have anything to do with it. Imho it is simply about IKM failing to understand what good interface design for music software is all about. Note that direct competitors of your products do not suffer from similar issues at all: if I assign any control of any module in NI Guitar Rig for automation, and then insert some other modules and swap their order around (which would effectively make it a "totally different plugin", according to your description), none of the connections get lost, and they all have proper names and normalised values. "Necessity" would imply that it is not possible to have fixed parameters for plug-ins with a modular design, which is simply nonsense, as proven by many non-IKM plug-ins.
Your explanation is also inconsistent with the way IKM plug-ins actually behave. For example, there is a one *fixed* slot for wah pedal control via MIDI CC# (not aftertouch or pitch bend, go figure), that is apparently supposed to work (but often only actually works after opening the plug-in GUI window, again: go figure) regardless of which slot a wah pedal is placed in: it simply uses the first wah pedal found in *any* slot. Also, when assigning MIDI controls per preset, they persist even after changing their slot / order. So it is very well possible, even for the current versions of IKM plug-ins, to link a parameter in the plug-in to an external control regardless of "what models you have loaded in which slots."
However, when I would want to use the same wah pedal model *twice*, there is no way to control both of them using automation (and the MIDI CC# only works with 7 bit MIDI, which sucks because of its very poor resolution, and yet another cause of zipper noise when the plug-in does not have a decent smoothing algo). That has nothing to do with the placement within the different slots at all. It is simply the result of IKM's poor design choice to address parameters by manufacturer/model, making it impossible to select the same parameter on the same module for different slots. Again, go figure.
Moreover, even if that would not be an issue at all, the control system of Amplitube 3 would still be completely inferior for only having 16 parameter slots, where we don't even get to see proper parameter names and normalised values.
I do realise that using these effects as separate plug-ins is preferable in many cases, at least as far as automation goes. But that still doesn't make the automation system for the 'master shell' any more useful, and it doesn't apply to AT3 at all, since none of its modules are available as separate plug-ins - I'd wish they were, as that would presumably also do away with the 'necessity' of using RAM like a hog to load all modules into memory even when only a single one is used.
Bottom line: imho your entire automation / MIDI control system is *very* poorly designed. I'll be happy to discuss possible improvements, but let's do so elsewhere, so this topic can focus on Echoplex emulation plug-ins instead of (my) general issues with IKM's plug-ins.
Well, a distorted guitar sound is not ideal for identifying such zipper noise issues (in my experience, little noises are a fact of life when playing an electric guitar - so I just get used to completely ignoring them immediately when playing guitar). Of course, when we don't really hear it, for practical purposes there *isn't* really a problem, which I think explains the lack of similar complaints from other users (no offense intended to guitar players there!). If I only used AT3 for electric guitar (which is after all its intended purpose, right?), I might not even have noticed such issues myself.Brian @ IK Multimedia wrote:Ch00rD,
The behavior you're seeing in those .movs is not typical. I've never seen it before, and am unable at this point to reproduce it. I will definitely elevate your case to the development team, to see if they can get to the bottom of it.
This is the best I can do for you on short notice, but you should be able to see and hear that there is no noise normally associated with tweaking knobs in AmpliTube or T-RackS.
Still, at 1:37 in the first video, I clearly hear some zipper noise when the control is adjusted (and I'm not talking about the little pop when switching the module on or off). So you just seem to have confirmed my point: this is not a specific issue to my system at all. Indeed, let's get this to the developers to fix, and please take your time to get to the bottom of it, no hurries. I completely understand that there isn't much more you can do on short notice.
I can understand such considerations, but they only reinforce my impression of you guys being very bad at designing a useful interface for your software (I'll be happy to admit that you're great at making things *look* pretty, though - but placebo effects are just as real as SlashBrian @ IK Multimedia wrote:Regarding the assignable automation controls, this is designed this way for AmpliTube and T-RackS out of necessity, because we simply are unable to have fixed parameters, since the composition of the plugins changes completely, depending on what models you have loaded in which slots. AmpliTube and T-RackS master shell become totally different plugins every time the gear is swapped out.
The full T-RackS master shell was designed primarily with operating as a standalone mastering application in mind. T-RackS has individual plugins for each model in the suite which use the standard fixed parameter automation scheme - because in this circumstance, they can. The limited number of automatable parameters in the T-RackS master shell has not been an issue, since most users choose to use the individual plugins in their VST hosts.
Your explanation is also inconsistent with the way IKM plug-ins actually behave. For example, there is a one *fixed* slot for wah pedal control via MIDI CC# (not aftertouch or pitch bend, go figure), that is apparently supposed to work (but often only actually works after opening the plug-in GUI window, again: go figure) regardless of which slot a wah pedal is placed in: it simply uses the first wah pedal found in *any* slot. Also, when assigning MIDI controls per preset, they persist even after changing their slot / order. So it is very well possible, even for the current versions of IKM plug-ins, to link a parameter in the plug-in to an external control regardless of "what models you have loaded in which slots."
However, when I would want to use the same wah pedal model *twice*, there is no way to control both of them using automation (and the MIDI CC# only works with 7 bit MIDI, which sucks because of its very poor resolution, and yet another cause of zipper noise when the plug-in does not have a decent smoothing algo). That has nothing to do with the placement within the different slots at all. It is simply the result of IKM's poor design choice to address parameters by manufacturer/model, making it impossible to select the same parameter on the same module for different slots. Again, go figure.
Moreover, even if that would not be an issue at all, the control system of Amplitube 3 would still be completely inferior for only having 16 parameter slots, where we don't even get to see proper parameter names and normalised values.
I do realise that using these effects as separate plug-ins is preferable in many cases, at least as far as automation goes. But that still doesn't make the automation system for the 'master shell' any more useful, and it doesn't apply to AT3 at all, since none of its modules are available as separate plug-ins - I'd wish they were, as that would presumably also do away with the 'necessity' of using RAM like a hog to load all modules into memory even when only a single one is used.
Bottom line: imho your entire automation / MIDI control system is *very* poorly designed. I'll be happy to discuss possible improvements, but let's do so elsewhere, so this topic can focus on Echoplex emulation plug-ins instead of (my) general issues with IKM's plug-ins.
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- KVRist
- 124 posts since 4 Nov, 2005
My regular workflow isn't tweaking plugin parameters in real time, but I tested the IK Pultec, Linear Phase EQ, and Black CS76 Comp with a 400hz sine wave and did indeed experience a lot of cracking/zipper noise while moving controls during playback in ALL of these plugs.
Just to round it out, I tested the UAD 1176 and the Softube/NI 76 in the same project using the same test tone and had no zipper noise while moving controls in real time.
So in my case, YES, the IK plugs would be unusable for real-time tweaking during playback.
Just to round it out, I tested the UAD 1176 and the Softube/NI 76 in the same project using the same test tone and had no zipper noise while moving controls in real time.
So in my case, YES, the IK plugs would be unusable for real-time tweaking during playback.
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- KVRian
- 1480 posts since 14 Jun, 2003
aha , thats right i remember in the early blurbs about uad-1 they touted realtime parameter smoothing.
which i'd think by now everyone is doing?
by the way that echoloop from http://www.mathons.com/ is pretty fun but i sure wish i could save and reload the loops, hopefully in an update.
which i'd think by now everyone is doing?
by the way that echoloop from http://www.mathons.com/ is pretty fun but i sure wish i could save and reload the loops, hopefully in an update.
- KVRAF
- 18357 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
Yeah, I'm friends with the developer of Echoloop. Brilliant little VST, but if you read the original post you'll find that the topic was an emulated tape delay and Echoloop is a software version of the Oberheim (and later Gibson) Digital Echoplex which is a totally different animal. A fun and useful animal, but not really a tape delay in any way.Tony Ostinato wrote:aha , thats right i remember in the early blurbs about uad-1 they touted realtime parameter smoothing.
which i'd think by now everyone is doing?
by the way that echoloop from http://www.mathons.com/ is pretty fun but i sure wish i could save and reload the loops, hopefully in an update.
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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- KVRian
- 1480 posts since 14 Jun, 2003
indeed. i had an echoplex when i was a teen. loved it.
my take was that line6 and UA were kinda tied for echoplex plugins.
but i havent tried all those listed here.
in my live setup i use echolive, you can see it near the end here:
tho i don't go into it much. i started using it when i was running nuendo and id use echolives tap feature but now in reaper i use its own tap tempo and sync echolive to host.
so maybe ill change echo plugins at some point since pretty much any will work that way.
my take was that line6 and UA were kinda tied for echoplex plugins.
but i havent tried all those listed here.
in my live setup i use echolive, you can see it near the end here:
tho i don't go into it much. i started using it when i was running nuendo and id use echolives tap feature but now in reaper i use its own tap tempo and sync echolive to host.
so maybe ill change echo plugins at some point since pretty much any will work that way.
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- KVRian
- 777 posts since 13 Dec, 2011
Indeed, "everyone" (except IKM, unfortunately) seems to be doing this stuff properly nowadays - unless it's very unpractical / costly to do so. E.g., with a size parameter of an algorithmic reverb you'd typically still get some artefacts. Outside of such cases, in my experience it is a very rare thing to happen. I'm not familiar with enough plug-ins to say that this is an example of exceptionally poor programming, or 'merely' very poor programming, but I sure hope IKM fixes such issues, as I do like some of the other sonic qualities of their plug-ins.Tony Ostinato wrote:aha , thats right i remember in the early blurbs about uad-1 they touted realtime parameter smoothing.
which i'd think by now everyone is doing?
by the way that echoloop from http://www.mathons.com/ is pretty fun but i sure wish i could save and reload the loops, hopefully in an update.
[...]
so maybe ill change echo plugins at some point since pretty much any will work that way.
And to return to the OT: u-he also has a forthcoming tape plug-in 'Satin' that looks very promising, though it does not (yet) have a tempo sync option (I kindly requested such a function, of course) for its delay mode. I bet it can be used for some great tape echo effects somewhere near the Echoplex / Space Echo ball parks.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 628 posts since 4 Mar, 2007
So, all these years later, I will report that UAD2 Echoplex is "just what I was looking for". Especially now with the APOLLO being able to track with VST effects on a PC DAW, life couldn't be better.
Jim
Jim
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Brian @ IK Multimedia Brian @ IK Multimedia https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=249743
- KVRian
- 1042 posts since 6 Feb, 2011
In these videos there are scenes with clean amps having their controls adjusted, cabs with the mics moved around while playing, you name it. And all of it is smooth, not a "zipper" to be heard.Ch00rD wrote:Well, a distorted guitar sound is not ideal for identifying such zipper noise issues (in my experience, little noises are a fact of life when playing an electric guitar - so I just get used to completely ignoring them immediately when playing guitar).
Still, at 1:37 in the first video, I clearly hear some zipper noise when the control is adjusted (and I'm not talking about the little pop when switching the module on or off).
Right before the section with the booster that you mention is a clean guitar with chorus. Where is the zipper noise there? There is none. You asked me to give an example where it doesn't happen, and I gave you several minutes of examples where it doesn't happen. The only noise I hear in the example you cite is when the booster is turned on. There is a pop there, just like what you might expect from switching on the hardware version of the pedal. There may be some other "little noises" that come with playing guitar that you picked up on here or there, but NONE of them are like this zipper noise which you say plagues every tweak of every parameter of your software.
Regarding the other non-zipper issues you bring up, when AmpliTube 3 was developed to have drag & drop effects, the problem of keeping automation tied to the effect even after it was moved needed to be addressed. This is how it was.
There are some limitations to it which are well known, which you have rehashed here. We are limited in how much we can change this in AmpliTube 3 without breaking automation in existing mixes. Most people do not need more than 16 parameters automated in a single instance of AmpliTube, and most people do not need to automate two of the same wah pedals in the same instance of AmpliTube. So it does not make sense for us to break what works for the vast majority of users in order to change something that very few users will ever be confronted with.
But, this is the kind of thing that may be addressed in AmpliTube 4.
Regarding RAM, we did a major overhaul of RAM and CPU handling in AmpliTube 3.7.1, cutting RAM and CPU usage per instance significantly, without sacrificing realtime preset switching. Please make sure that you have the latest version of AmpliTube installed, which is v.3.10.
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- KVRian
- 777 posts since 13 Dec, 2011
Brian, as I have become accustomed to from IK Multimedia, that's a very deceptive bunch of bullshit. Instead of trying to get to the bottom of the issues, you're mainly trying to deny the issue, without showing any sort of proof of actually having tried to reproduce the issue, even after you've been explicitly asked to do so. Which is exactly what IKM has been doing every time I bring up such issues. :-/Brian @ IK Multimedia wrote:In these videos there are scenes with clean amps having their controls adjusted, cabs with the mics moved around while playing, you name it. And all of it is smooth, not a "zipper" to be heard.Ch00rD wrote:Well, a distorted guitar sound is not ideal for identifying such zipper noise issues (in my experience, little noises are a fact of life when playing an electric guitar - so I just get used to completely ignoring them immediately when playing guitar).
Still, at 1:37 in the first video, I clearly hear some zipper noise when the control is adjusted (and I'm not talking about the little pop when switching the module on or off).
Right before the section with the booster that you mention is a clean guitar with chorus. Where is the zipper noise there? There is none. You asked me to give an example where it doesn't happen, and I gave you several minutes of examples where it doesn't happen. The only noise I hear in the example you cite is when the booster is turned on. There is a pop there, just like what you might expect from switching on the hardware version of the pedal. There may be some other "little noises" that come with playing guitar that you picked up on here or there, but NONE of them are like this zipper noise which you say plagues every tweak of every parameter of your software.
First off, I told you exactly where I hear zipper noise (at 1:37, but to be even more specific: when the level knob is raised after switching the 'Booster' effect on, I hear a few little pops as well), *even* in that demonstration video made by IK Multimedia themselves, while a demo video is arguably the worst reference possible for such issues. I mentioned this particular example not to discuss the zipper noise issues based on *that* example, but because you claim that it is an issue specific to my system. The fact that you say that you don't hear anything (other than the pops which I explicitly said were *not* what I was referring to) does imply that your earlier statement about not being able to reproduce any of it has become somewhat meaningless, though. If I can hear it and you can't, at least one of us seems to have a hearing and/or cognitive problem. Since another user has independently stated he also hears such zipper noise in his own tests, it is more likely to be you than me.
Sure, there are many parameters in your software that can be tweaked without audible zipper noises. But *NOWHERE* have I said that "zipper noise [...] plagues every tweak of every parameter of your software." You are making one hell of a straw man fallacy there, Brian! Where I say that these issues happen throughout your applications, that simply means that these issues are not isolated to just one or two specific parameters, but to many different parameters. In one of the example videos I have sent you guys ages ago already (associated with the ticket you told me that you have found yourself the other day after I PM'ed you my email address) I have shown quite a few, and I mentioned many of them individually and specifically in my bug reports to the bottomless pit that you refer to as "technical support". I'd be happy to go over a bunch of them individually again, but there are literally way too much to mention in a thread like this one, and I have already asked you politely to discuss this matter elsewhere because we're derailing a thread about *good* Echoplex VSTs here with issues happening throughout IKM's plug-ins (did you miss that or do you simply not care?). The only one that is actually relevant here has already been mentioned very explicitly: the input level of your new Tape Echo.
Similarly, *NOWHERE* did I ask you "to give an example where it doesn't happen". Nor did I ask for "clean guitar" or "clean amps". What I did ask you (since the burden of proof is on your side if you wish to maintain the credibility of your statements about this being a problem specific to my system), is to reproduce *exactly* what I did: feed a clean sine wave through the plug-ins and tweak the same knobs of the examples I have shown you where the zipper noise is *very* clearly audible in the recordings. Afaik, that is how bug reporting is supposed to be done: trying to *exactly* reproduce a *very specific* scenario. But apparently IKM simply does not know how to do handle proper bug reports about serious quality issues. Somehow, I'm not surprised at all.
The fact that you think this entire matter can be reduced to a binary question of "every single parameter in all IKM software makes zipper noise" vs. "there is no problem at all here, case closed" would be absolutely hilarious, if it weren't insulting the intelligence of your users so much. How very illustrative of the poor quality and support of IK Multimedia in general. The bottom line is that no, you did not "nail it", since the Echoplex may be noisy, but definitely has no zipper noise on its input, while your emulation does. Fail, period.
"Well known", as in, explicitly mentioned as limitations on the technical specs somewhere? Routinely mentioned to prospective customers? I have never seen any of these issues mentioned in the amazing amount of marketing that you guys produce. If I would have known about these severe issues, I simply would not have bought your product. That's how "well known" they were to me. If you say I only rehashed issues here, please show me 'the original hash' where IK Multimedia explicitly mentioned or acknowledged them?Brian @ IK Multimedia wrote:Regarding the other non-zipper issues you bring up, when AmpliTube 3 was developed to have drag & drop effects, the problem of keeping automation tied to the effect even after it was moved needed to be addressed. This is how it was.
There are some limitations to it which are well known, which you have rehashed here. We are limited in how much we can change this in AmpliTube 3 without breaking automation in existing mixes. Most people do not need more than 16 parameters automated in a single instance of AmpliTube, and most people do not need to automate two of the same wah pedals in the same instance of AmpliTube. So it does not make sense for us to break what works for the vast majority of users in order to change something that very few users will ever be confronted with.
You're just making yourself look silly there by selectively picking arguments there and trying to refute them. Absolutely nothing would have to be broken in terms of backward compatibility by proper naming and formatting of parameters and their values. You do a nice job downplaying what the rest of the plug-in market considers to be good interface design, or the need of most users to use some arbitrary example like two identical wah pedals. But anyone with a bit of common sense can see that this is but an example, that serves only to illustrate the type of unnecessary restrictions resulting from the very poor design of automation support in IK Multimedia plug-ins, and is certainly not an example of a specific configuration that is absolutely necessary for "the vast majority of users".
Perhaps the average Amplitube user indeed doesn't much need to automate 16 parameters per instance. But he may like to use a remote controller that shows proper parameter names and values, which also relies on plug-in parameter automation. And, more likely, the people who really do need it simply aren't your customers, but customers of superior products made by other developers. Moreover, you are ignoring T-Racks there, where I guess the typical user is not a guitar player flipping through presets. By your reasoning, no user of any IK Multimedia plug-in ever really needs to automate and/or have remote control over 16 parameters, nor does anyone care about seeing proper parameter names and values in DAW's or on remote controllers. Perhaps you're right. But if not, then clearly, the current design of the system used for automation / MIDI control in IK Multimedia plug-ins completely sucks.
Onoes, not that again. You can brag all you want about "cutting RAM and CPU usage per instance significantly", but the fact is that your plug-ins used to be GIGANTIC memory and CPU hogs; now they are 'only' ENORMOUS memory and CPU hogs. Again, some directly competing products do not suffer from these issues nearly as much, without any need to load all modules into memory for 'realtime preset switching'. The fact that you only managed to marginally decrease memory and CPU usage only indicates that IK Multimedia's programming skills are inferior to some competitors. So there's really absolutely nothing to brag about there, Brian. Sucking 30% less still makes you suck.Brian @ IK Multimedia wrote:But, this is the kind of thing that may be addressed in AmpliTube 4.
LOL. You don't really expect me to *pay* for an update to have all this stuff fixed, now do you really?Brian @ IK Multimedia wrote:Regarding RAM, we did a major overhaul of RAM and CPU handling in AmpliTube 3.7.1, cutting RAM and CPU usage per instance significantly, without sacrificing realtime preset switching. Please make sure that you have the latest version of AmpliTube installed, which is v.3.10.
And yes, of course I have made sure I updated to the latest version before reporting any issues, as is standard practice in decent bug reporting. Which has been reported in my bug reports as well, so you would have known that if you had you actually reviewed my support tickets, as you had promised me.
As usual, dealing with the nonsense replies of IK Multimedia staff takes more effort than to point out the actual bugs themselves. I'm apparently just wasting my time attempting to have a constructive discussion with you. You guys sure know how to demotivate critical users to report bugs to IK Multimedia, I suspect it must be a strategy that is working out really well for you. Fortunately, there are superior alternatives for all your products, made by developers doing a much better job at communicating with their users.
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- KVRian
- 1102 posts since 30 Oct, 2005
typical Brian IK approach in full effect here...Brian @ IK Multimedia wrote:In these videos there are scenes with clean amps having their controls adjusted, cabs with the mics moved around while playing, you name it. And all of it is smooth, not a "zipper" to be heard.Ch00rD wrote:Well, a distorted guitar sound is not ideal for identifying such zipper noise issues (in my experience, little noises are a fact of life when playing an electric guitar - so I just get used to completely ignoring them immediately when playing guitar).
Still, at 1:37 in the first video, I clearly hear some zipper noise when the control is adjusted (and I'm not talking about the little pop when switching the module on or off).
Right before the section with the booster that you mention is a clean guitar with chorus. Where is the zipper noise there? There is none. You asked me to give an example where it doesn't happen, and I gave you several minutes of examples where it doesn't happen. The only noise I hear in the example you cite is when the booster is turned on. There is a pop there, just like what you might expect from switching on the hardware version of the pedal. There may be some other "little noises" that come with playing guitar that you picked up on here or there, but NONE of them are like this zipper noise which you say plagues every tweak of every parameter of your software.
Regarding the other non-zipper issues you bring up, when AmpliTube 3 was developed to have drag & drop effects, the problem of keeping automation tied to the effect even after it was moved needed to be addressed. This is how it was.
There are some limitations to it which are well known, which you have rehashed here. We are limited in how much we can change this in AmpliTube 3 without breaking automation in existing mixes. Most people do not need more than 16 parameters automated in a single instance of AmpliTube, and most people do not need to automate two of the same wah pedals in the same instance of AmpliTube. So it does not make sense for us to break what works for the vast majority of users in order to change something that very few users will ever be confronted with.
But, this is the kind of thing that may be addressed in AmpliTube 4.
Regarding RAM, we did a major overhaul of RAM and CPU handling in AmpliTube 3.7.1, cutting RAM and CPU usage per instance significantly, without sacrificing realtime preset switching. Please make sure that you have the latest version of AmpliTube installed, which is v.3.10.
I bet it makes no sense to claim here that ANY volume knob on ANY IK plugin exhibits hearable zipper-noise?
luckily enough there are another devs with completely different approach - I have reported exactly the same issue in Melda plugins years ago and got this answer: I dont hear it,but will analyze it and try to find a solution...and next month ALL Melda plugins /and they have a lot more plugins than IK/ were equipped with brand new modulator and automation protection system...

