Forbidden notes? and heads up for Mucoder Tonespace

[leggie]

First off I never really 'Got' music theory so finding Tonespace today has me inspired enough to read the simple, clear manual. Something struck me as interesting was the mention of 'forbidden' notes ..

Ill Quote if you don't want to click the link

'Now we have a problem: the chord does not fit entirely onto the scale/key anymore, since the middle interval maps to a black cell. So if you would play this chord, the middle note would be a forbidden note. Whether that is a problem or not is not a hard rule and depends really on your intention and preferences as a composer, but let's say for simplicity that you would really like to stick to notes within the selected scale/key. In that case we should change the chord to something else that does fit at that root note.

I'm aware of out of key passing notes in blues scales but what other genres dare to use the FORBIDDEN note ?



http://www.mucoder.net/en/tonespace/v02 ... /Index.htm

[Ch00rD]

+1 for the Tonespace love.

As to the question, it reminds me of something a virtuoso guitarist once told me: if you play a lick fast enough, people only hear (1) the first note, (2) the last note, and (3) the *rhythm* of all the notes between them. So arguably, in any genre where really fast passages are being used, one could 'get away with' playing any note, forbidden or not.

Of course that's far from an adequate answer, just something that came to mind.

[Sendy]

I WILL hear the "forbidden" notes even if they're fast. Subconsciously so will most other people. Some notes just don't sound good together, but it's not a hard and fast rule. Generally you don't want to mix a flatted third with a natural third (mixing major and minor) so some people with some knowledge will remove all instances of this from their music. But then sometimes those "forbidden" patterns can sound effective and usually these are the most emotive ideas. Breaking a rule and just getting away with it is badass so following a "painting by numbers" approach to music can only lead to mediocrity.

[Ch00rD]

I WILL hear the "forbidden" notes even if they're fast. [...]

Then they aren't fast *enough*. More seriously, I do see your point; perhaps a better explanation of this would be that really short notes (especially with a lot of overtones in the attack stage, such as may be the case with a picked electric guitar) aren't really perceived as *pitched* notes. Oversimplifying: they aren't really notes, just a rhythmic pattern. Does that make more sense?

[leggie]

Does that make more sense?

So would there be a place where the dissonant forbidden notes would be used in a more sustained way ?

[Sendy]

I WILL hear the "forbidden" notes even if they're fast. [...]

Then they aren't fast *enough*. More seriously, I do see your point; perhaps a better explanation of this would be that really short notes (especially with a lot of overtones in the attack stage, such as may be the case with a picked electric guitar) aren't really perceived as *pitched* notes. Oversimplifying: they aren't really notes, just a rhythmic pattern. Does that make more sense?

I get what you mean, really handy for live performance and it reminds me a bit of the ghost and slap notes you can get with bass and percussive instruments where it's bordering between pitched and unpitched. Since I'm a mediocre keyboard player I have a library of techniques for making things sound better than they are and this is definitely one of them as I'm terrible at remembering what accendentals are needed for what chords when I'm improvising.

I'd never let something like this get into my studio work, though. We are essentially supreme gods with ultimate control over the five minute spans of our tracks. There's no room for error that could be avoided.

And there are definitely times when "forbidden" notes sound good together. And a computer program, while it may help you learn to flesh out your composition (and I could probably learn from it myself), isn't going to tell you how to do that.

[JumpingJackFlash]

'Now we have a problem: the chord does not fit entirely onto the scale/key anymore, since the middle interval maps to a black cell. So if you would play this chord, the middle note would be a forbidden note. Whether that is a problem or not is not a hard rule and depends really on your intention and preferences as a composer, but let's say for simplicity that you would really like to stick to notes within the selected scale/key. In that case we should change the chord to something else that does fit at that root note.

I've not looked at the site, but it sounds like they're just using a fancy (or patronising, depending on you point of view) word for "chromaticism".

Chromatic notes are notes which are foreign to the key (or mode), and they occur in just about every type of music that uses keys (or modes).

[Tricky-Loops]

'Now we have a problem: the chord does not fit entirely onto the scale/key anymore, since the middle interval maps to a black cell. So if you would play this chord, the middle note would be a forbidden note. Whether that is a problem or not is not a hard rule and depends really on your intention and preferences as a composer, but let's say for simplicity that you would really like to stick to notes within the selected scale/key. In that case we should change the chord to something else that does fit at that root note.

I've not looked at the site, but it sounds like they're just using a fancy (or patronising, depending on you point of view) word for "chromaticism".

Chromatic notes are notes which are foreign to the key (or mode), and they occur in just about every type of music that uses keys (or modes).

That's exactly what I wanted to write (but you came first). I don't know any "forbidden" notes, they seem to mean "chromatic notes".

[Tricky-Loops]

BTW, Tonespace is a great VST to learn chords, but there are so many of it that I've never grasped it completely...

[Tricky-Loops]

Mmhhh...the more I think about it, the more I like the term "forbidden notes", it sounds like "forbidden fruits" or like "secret love"...

[jancivil]

'forbidden' note. that's such a strong word - the link to the site was not the link to the manual but I kind of doubt I'm going to get a lot more context than the quote in the OP - which doesn't say more than there are notes that aren't part of a 'chord' or 'key'. so, pretty much any music can do that.

"Some notes just don't sound good together" Music is contextual. I hardly know where to begin to address that.


there is however in Indian Classical Music that very term, forbidden note, which can even mean a note that's of the raga but you don't do it ascending, or you don't do it descending, or in a particular type of lick. besides notes that you pretty much don't want to do, there are notes you never ever do in a given raga.
because these will ruin the feeling, or the mood, or the personality of the raga.