Show me some melody in modern electronic music.

[vurt]

You've been to festivals that play Curtis Mayfield, trance, and Stevie Ray Vaughan?

not even festivals, ive been to gigs where you will get a jazz band to start the evening, then maybe a regga or punk act, ending with some live electronica, with various djs playing all sorts.
same people dancing all night, except for the odd few who are there for a specific band maybe, people who want to dance will dance to anything good n groovy.

everybody loves a bit of earth, wind n fire!

[Hink]

You've been to festivals that play Curtis Mayfield, trance, and Stevie Ray Vaughan?

and more every year right here in my city

http://www.lowellfolkfestival.org/performers.html

[ghettosynth]

Yea, my bad, I didn't realize you were only talking about tempo. I'm still litigating whether all-dominating 4 on the floor kicks are necessary for people to want to dance instinctively.

Andy summed it up well, but, nobody ever said that was the case. Also, the simplistic rhythm is your introduction, not my claim. My claim with regards to evolution is that the metronomic timing of samples played in the large is what gives EDM the long term predictability that allows people to experience the joy of more precise synchronization. This is unique really to modern EDM. Prior to EDM the best that you could do was (fixed pattern) drum machines and they have limited within pattern interesting variation. I never said that the beat had to be simple or dominated by kicks. There is research that links 4 on the floor more naturally to dancing and this was discussed in detail in another thread. In simple terms, though, we have two legs. That said, a simple rhythm is one way to achieve this so it's not surprising that it's successful. Now, loud bass feels great, so that may be all the justification one needs for simple kicks. I imagine if Curtis Mayfield had today's sound systems and technology his music might have evolved differently.

The very fact that you don't realize what's played at modern EDM shows should be a red flag to you that you don't know the customer that you're asking us, in essence, how to sell! Andy's absolutely right and even recently I went to a show where one of the DJs was spinning nothing but 45s of old soul records. It's not my thing, but a lot of people are into it. That said, in no way was it the main attraction.

One way to get some exposure to this scene without engaging it fully is to seek out the Sunday after parties that sometimes happen in city parks. These aren't that common, but, if you're near a big city then there's probably something like this.

(no, I'm not in any of these pictures)

Seattle from 2006


San Francisco 2013



These events are almost always family friendly and you will see a diverse group of styles and ages. You can just blend, observe, and listen. At least square your perception of the musical capabilities of this scene with reality before you pass judgement. If it's not your thing, ok, but it's a bit tiring listening to someone criticize something that he really has no exposure to. It's pretty clear that you don't really know the depth or breadth of EDM and are passing judgement based on a very small sample set.

[ghettosynth]

people who want to dance will dance to anything good n groovy.

This is too simple. It's like saying "people who want to hear music will listen to anything good n groovy." And, while there's some truth to it, it doesn't at all mean that it's what's preferred. Just because people are dancing all night doesn't mean that they'd rather be dancing to something else or that the music is awakening the same state that a different type of music would.

In many cases, it's not true at all. I'm sure that you've noticed this in your local club. The dance floor is virtually empty until some big chart buster comes on and then there's a mad rush for the floor. When I used to play in a cover band we noticed that if people weren't dancing that some songs were much better than others in getting them to dance. Specifically, fifties songs or anything by Billy Idol. Now, in that case there's a serious confound, namely, my band might have sucked, and of course, knowing what we already know, namely, that in addition to writing comma laden run on monstrosities of sentence cum paragraphs, that I'm a no-talent simpleton blues-ish musician cum DJ, this is probably true, and, something like a three chord fifties song was all we could manage without butchering it. Nonetheless, I'm reasonably certain that I've observed similar behavior with other bands.

Clearly, the attendees wanted to dance, it's just that they find some music more comfortable than others. Those of us who've spent some time dancing CAN dance to anything that comes on, but that doesn't mean that we don't experience the same variation in comfort and find, for whatever reason, some music more interesting than others. As Andy pointed out, on average, this gets sorted out in what DJs play. If a different type of music were "more danceable", then we would hear that type of music. You might argue that drugs are a factor, certainly they might be, but, if your goal is to sell records, frankly, you can't ignore that factor.

The question of whether it was good dance music, for me, comes at the end of the night when it's all said and done, was it a killer event, or just one of the many. When I saw Richie Hawtin play last Summer, it was off the chain. The event that I attended on New Years, however, was so so. I danced all night at both, but I only entered (here comes some lingo) "the zone" during Hawtin's show.

[vurt]

people who want to dance will dance to anything good n groovy.

This is too simple. It's like saying "people who want to hear music will listen to anything good n groovy." And, while there's some truth to it, it doesn't at all mean that it's what's preferred. Just because people are dancing all night doesn't mean that they'd rather be dancing to something else or that the music is awakening the same state that a different type of music would.

out of context it maybe too simple, with the rest of the post giving a little more detail i think it makes sense. it wasnt really a post about "edm" but a reply regarding the mixed bag, which is what happens at a lot of clubs and gigs now, i think both because its harder to gt gigs, so different bands ar coming together and also because there are are lot more people out there who are in to "music" rather than bing into a specific genre. at least that has been my experience living where i was in the city, lot less boundaries.
now im back in a small town there does seem to be more of a genre divide, wedging myself into the hard rock scene is proving difficult to try and get gigs

In many cases, it's not true at all. I'm sure that you've noticed this in your local club. The dance floor is virtually empty until some big chart buster comes on and then there's a mad rush for the floor.

i was kinda lucky, the last place i would call my "local" was and is back in manc. a friend of mine, nicky (you may know him as mc tunes )was the dj on a saturday night, he would play all sorts from funk, northern soul, soul, hip hop, indie and of course a bit of edm and the floor never really emptied.

not to say that i couldnt find a club catering for purely edm or jazz ot whatever, and often did, i just liked the relaxed atmosphere as well as the music.

[Tricky-Loops]

What do you understand under the term "dancing"? Shaking & moving your body like on spastic attacks (without rules) or "classical" dancing like Tango ("organized dancing")?

I can shake my body to every kind of music, but I cannot dance Tango to Heavy Metal music.

(Just an example. Because I cannot dance Tango...but I don't have spastic attacks, either. )

[vurt]

What do you understand under the term "dancing"? Shaking & moving your body like on spastic attacks (without rules) or "classical" dancing like Tango ("organized dancing")?

I can shake my body to every kind of music, but I cannot dance Tango to Heavy Metal music.

(Just an example. Because I cannot dance Tango...but I don't have spastic attacks, either. )

dancing is whatever suits the music being played.
these days though, whatever the music im usually stood at the bar
this old body cant take it no more, on the floor

[Tricky-Loops]

dancing is whatever suits the music being played.

Recently I've tried to dance like Skinny Puppy, but I lost too much blood...

[ghettosynth]

So I was talking to a friend of mine who works in a neuroscience lab and has done some work on response to sound in zebra fish, i.e. not an expert in the area per se, but, familiar with some aspects of neuroscience and how it relates to perception of sound.

She pointed out that there is a relationship between interpretation of complex melody and activation of the auditory cortex. Also, recent FMRI research indicates that it's possible to distinguish trance states from control states.

The point is, and I haven't had much time to read literature because I'm busy with other things, is that there is probably a very strong neurological reason why melody doesn't work as well in dance music that is associated with trance states. I would say that most people experience this empirically and even the counter arguments of those in this thread suggest that it's true. That is, those that enjoy these trance like states tend to prefer repetitive patterns over melody, and those that abhor such simple patterns argue that they engage music intellectually.

If one wants to enter a trance like state, one does not wanted to be distracted by complex thought, and if one wants to engage in complex thought, one doesn't want to enter a trance like state. The long distance runner repeats mantras, he doesn't recite Shakespeare.

Granted, perhaps this is all fueled by the presence of specific drugs. Change the drugs, and the preference for a different combination changes, e.g. bikers don't like house music. I'm not going to engage in that part of the conversation other than to say that my own appreciation for trance states goes back to my childhood. There's also research that discusses what factors impact one's appreciation or preference for trance states. Maybe such factors explain why some people appreciate repetitive music and some do not.

Suffice it to say that, for me, there is no ambiguity. Few are skilled enough to weave melody into deep dance floor music and make it work and, in almost all cases, even if they can, a track with less melody almost always works better. If I have to put a number on it, I'm going to go with what fits into our auditory buffer which is about three seconds. That's completely a guess, but I suspect that a relationship exists.

Moreover, also for me, there must be a perception of long evolution on a subtle scale. I say perception because it's not clear to me that simple changes cannot induce the sense of this evolution. For example, simple rhythm patterns often evoke a repetitive vocal mantra. On careful listening, it turns out that no vocal samples are involved at all, often just the right combination of cymbal and snare samples. Small changes can often induce the effect of these patterns shifting to a different phrase as the mental perception of the start of the phrase becomes realigned. Slow filter sweeps, or even just odd timing shifts, for example, simply increasing the attack on a percussive sound, might accomplish this. To the listener in a trance, the music has changed dramatically whether the change was a one time change or a long evolving change. At any rate, whatever causes these kinds of changes is what distinguishes good deep dance music from just leaving the drum machine running. If you aren't sensitive to these kinds of changes, you might view them as one and the same.

[ghettosynth]

not to say that i couldnt find a club catering for purely edm or jazz ot whatever, and often did, i just liked the relaxed atmosphere as well as the music.

I see. Yeah, in some sense, it's a different kind of mindset. I like eclectic nights a lot when I'm not going out to get my "dance fix." I'll still dance, but's not really the same as a hardcore house night.

[Tricky-Loops]

The long distance runner repeats mantras, he doesn't recite Shakespeare.

Being a Buddhist, I'll make your quote to my new mantra...

[ghettosynth]

The long distance runner repeats mantras, he doesn't recite Shakespeare.

Being a Buddhist, I'll make your quote to my new mantra...

Awesome, I like them a little more rhythmic for running.

[Lerian]

[ghettosynth]

Some primordial house...

[jancivil]