Studio One 3?

[LawrenceF]

It happens when you have a plugin inducing latency anywhere in your mix, it throws off all automation on all channels by some amount usually a few samples, the more plugins with latency you have in a mix, the more automation is out of time
So if you have something automated by ear and then you add some plugin with latency anywhere in a mix, it nudges your automation by few samples from where it suppose to be on all tracks.

Just as an experiment: Translate (so it has a practical real world reference) "a few samples" into milliseconds (or sub-milliseconds) at whatever sample rate you're working with, and let me know what that is, and if you can hear it.

My observations in these cases (in any DAW really) is that people may be overly concerned with things that are ....

1. Not even actually audible.

... and ...

2. They often completely misunderstand how phase relationships actually work ... thinking that any miniscule timing shift in isolation (e.g. not with one part of an identical copy) causes "phase issues".

So in these cases (in any daw) I'm inclined to evaluate the actual "audible" impact if any and go from there. If there is no audible impact, I generally don't worry about it.

I think (daw war motivations for some of this stuff aside) it boils down to the paralysis by analysis thing, worrying too much about stuff that actually doesn't matter in some cases.

Make music, not science.

[firepile]

Yes but then when you drag clips it won't snap to grid.

Can you hold down Shift?

[nIGhT-SoN]

Yes, ofcourse, that's what I do now, but coming from cubase and reason, it's a little out of hand, that's why I would like it to be optional, for people like me.

[fluxmind]

Just as an experiment: Translate (so it has a practical real world reference) "a few samples" into milliseconds (or sub-milliseconds) at whatever sample rate you're working with, and let me know what that is, and if you can hear it.

Yes, I can
I've just done a test and it turns out to be worse, when I expected, really I did't expected it be so badly out of time.
Now imagine a complex mix and where you're constantly adding, removing plugins with latency
Yes, you may not hear it, because of masking and stuff in a busy mix, but there's no doubt it affects your end results badly.
Also it depends on your latency settings.

[LawrenceF]

Now imagine a complex mix and where you're constantly adding, removing plugins with latency
Yes, you may not hear it, because of masking and stuff in a busy mix, but there's no doubt it affects your end results badly.

I don't have to imagine, I've done tons of busy mixes in S1 with tons of plugs and afaik nothing happened "badly".

I would humbly suggest that if you feel there is a serious issue with it, just don't use it. It works well for me and many others who've mixed records in it.

Thanks.

P.S. BTW, what's your S1 forum user name? I don't recall seeing a bug report like that over there. If you bought it (you did buy it right?) and found that issue, I suppose you gave the developers a detailed report so they can look at it for you so you can feel comfortable using the software you bought?

Give them a detailed report, including the audio card and driver being used and the actual numerical measurements at various latency settings.

At any rate I hope they get it sorted for you. In the meantime, I'll keep getting paid to mix in it.

[fluxmind]

Now imagine a complex mix and where you're constantly adding, removing plugins with latency
Yes, you may not hear it, because of masking and stuff in a busy mix, but there's no doubt it affects your end results badly.

I don't have to imagine, I've done tons of busy mixes in S1 with tons of plugs and afaik nothing happened "badly".

I would humbly suggest that if you feel there is a serious issue with it, just don't use it. It works well for me and many others who've mixed records in it.

Thanks.

P.S. BTW, what's your S1 forum user name? I don't recall seeing a bug report like that over there. If you bought it (you did buy it right?) and found that issue, I suppose you gave the developers a detailed report so they can look at it for you so you can feel comfortable using the software you bought?

Give them a detailed report, including the audio card and driver being used and the actual numerical measurements at various latency settings.

At any rate I hope they get it sorted for you. In the meantime, I'll keep getting paid to mix in it.

I don't use it, I've just demoed it, that's what some people do, when they're demoing stuff, instead of WoW I can load melodyne on every track, which I don't have nor care or WoW I can drag and drop plugins, which is waist of time, really.
If you wouldn't be doing tons of your busy mixes with tons of plugins, you would notice what you're mixing
So I've just come by here by accident since I was replying to some old thread and noticed this one. So I've found it amusing, that a self proclaimed revolutionary DAW still doesn't have compensation for automation.
I bet your tons of busy mixes are remarkable, so I'll leave you there to go do your mixes, because I bet you're running out of time for non-existent deadlines
Your welcome

[Ch00rD]

Now imagine a complex mix and where you're constantly adding, removing plugins with latency
Yes, you may not hear it, because of masking and stuff in a busy mix, but there's no doubt it affects your end results badly.

I don't have to imagine, I've done tons of busy mixes in S1 with tons of plugs and afaik nothing happened "badly".

I would humbly suggest that if you feel there is a serious issue with it, just don't use it. It works well for me and many others who've mixed records in it. [...]

This sounds exactly like one of the threads about Ableton Live.

(And indeed, I just don't use it for any serious work using plug-ins and automation, as I feel it is a serious issue. YMMV, of course.)

[samsam]

^ Only difference is in a S1 thread somebody might pop in to rail on Ableton but in an Ableton thread, I'd imagine S1 gets off without any grief

[LawrenceF]

... because I bet you're running out of time for non-existent deadlines

How did we go to politely discussing a potential issue to you throwing personal insults / insinuations at me?

All I said is that I use tons of plugs and automation and I have not noticed any issue that affect any of my mixes. I don't do the Ableton style EDM dance stuff so maybe that's the difference, no clue. Maybe the difference is that I tend to write most of my automation near the end of the mix. But whatever it is, it has no audible effect on my mixes. I've posted tons of stuff (things I actually can share) to my YouTube channel.

Now if you'd like to believe that I'm lying and that I'm actually not mixing in it and that I have "non-existent deadlines" (wtf was that anyway? ), be my guest.

If the problem does show up for you and your working stlye, like I said before, don't use it. I actually didn't suggest you were lying nor did I suggest that it may not have an issue that affect you or others. I suggested that it does not "screw" my mixes, and it doesn't.

[trimph1]

Here we go with the insinuations that someone is lying about something working when others claim it isn't...sigh.

Can we not understand that given the complexity of what we are using and that one's workflow may, or may not, include the issue to begin with? Or other things may muck it up?

No need to bang on the person not having the issue..it just is the way it is...

[LawrenceF]

I do think - like I said earlier re: mute automation - there is an potential issue there. I'm actually not sure, because my tests didn't get that involved, if the issue is the automation, the delay compensation, or the rendering. To really flesh that out in a test you'd have to repeat the test multiple times at multiple ASIO latencies, offline, realtime offline, and realtime recording back to a new track.

The realtime print will probably be the best indication of the timing of what you will hear during playback, even if (which has been the case in a few different products I've tested at various times) the offline bounces are occasionally off a little one way or another. It's just recently added realtime print capability in 2.5 so that wasn't easy to do before, so I might repeat some of those tests again.

I actually don't think - like I said before with mute automation - that it's dead accurate in every case, but I didn't do enough testing to get a good feel of why or what or what area may be responsible for that. If (saying "if", not suggesting it is) realtime is accurate and offline is off a little, that would point more to the problem being in rendering. But I'd have to do that kind of comparitive testing to see if or how all of that varies, and use a range of different plugs, stacking plugs along the way, to see if any timing issue that shows up persists, or changes or grows as latencies add up, etc.

If I get the chance I'll circle back and test all that in detail. If I do, I'll also repeat the entire process from X to Y with two different audio drivers, my MOTU driver and maybe also the PreSonus Universal driver, to see if there is any variance with drivers.

For the kind of conventional linear work I do, I have yet to notice any issue that causes audible problems, except for the mute automation thing I mentioned earlier. People doing EDM or something may indeed have issues... I personally don't know... I don't really do that kind of production.

[liquidsound]

instead of WoW I can load melodyne on every track, which I don't have nor care or WoW I can drag and drop plugins, which is waist of time, really.

[trimph1]

Which WoW we talkin' 'bout, Willis?

[hibidy]

WoW, you didn't know?????

[trimph1]

ohhhhh...pppllllpppplllllppppllll