Did KVR Scare the Reaper Peeps Away?

[koolkeys]

The best docking behavior in any program ever is in Photoshop, bar none. It's just so smooth, predictable and just right.

I know what you mean about docking being "clunky" in Reaper. It's because the blue bars can be misleading, and docking does not really behave in a WYSIWYG way. Tricky, but what the hell. Once you set it up, save the screenset and off you go.

I agree, as mentioned above, I think I'm spoiled by the Adobe docking system. I use Adobe software for hours and hours a day and they really did get it right.

The Reaper docking, besides the things you mention, isn't horrible. But there are issues with wasted/poor use of space, sizing issues when using multiple docks, inconsistent behaviors with the actual docking actions, etc. To me, the problem with a lot of docking systems is that you're docking windows that weren't really designed to go together in the interface. Screensets help, no doubt about it. And as said, Reaper definitely isn't the only one. It's better than some. But I hope they work on it some more.

Maybe that's why I like Studio One so much. The interface is designed to go with itself. Everything is aware of everything else, and it just works well for me. Others may hate the Studio One interface.

I guess that's why we have so many choices still and not just one master application, eh? Luckily, I enjoy enough about Reaper to overlook these things for the purposes that I use it for.

Brent

[LawrenceF]

The docking in Reaper is a love/hate kind of thing for me. I love having it there, and I use it, but there is something strange about it's behavior ...
Brent

The general multi docking "concept" in Reaper is nice imo. If you're going to do a multi-dock, that's the way to approach it.

What drags it down a little (imo, mmv, yada yada, not criticizing) is that some things that dock have not yet been completely designed for docking anywhere. The dialogs and windows came first and the multi docking came later and some things just don't fit as well as they could docked in some places. That most of those things aren't skinned also maybe adds to the subjective "visual disconnection" of the UI.

So I think most of it is related to the design order. If the multidocking had come earlier, maybe a lot of those windows might have been designed with the docking in mind.

Aside from that, the only thing I don't like about the docking is that docked things don't seem to remember their sizes. As you switch between docked things via the tabs, you kinda have to keep resizing the dockers, or use screensets.

A lot of that can be made better though once they get around to it. The foundation is there, it just needs some more ergonomic touches, imo, mmv.

And I have to agree with ED. Adobe has docking down to a science. Their apps that dock things work really well. The Vegas docks aren't bad either, allowing you to detach windows and dock other things in the detached windows.

At any rate, it's hard to nitpick a $60 app too much... especially one that does so many things so well.

[koolkeys]

The docking in Reaper is a love/hate kind of thing for me. I love having it there, and I use it, but there is something strange about it's behavior ...
Brent

The general multi docking "concept" in Reaper is nice imo. If you're going to do a multi-dock, that's the way to approach it.

What drags it down a little (imo, mmv, yada yada, not criticizing) is that some things that dock have not yet been completely designed for docking anywhere. The dialogs and windows came first and the multi docking came later and some things just don't fit as well as they could docked in some places. That some of those things aren't skinned also maybe adds to the subjective "visual disconnection" of the UI.

So I think most of it is related to the design order. If the multidocking had come earlier, maybe a lot of those windows might have been designed with the docking in mind.

Aside from that, the only thing I don't like about the docking is that docked things don't seem to remember their sizes. As you switch between docked things via the tabs, you kinda have to keep resizing the dockers, or use screensets.

A lot of that can be made better though once they get around to it. The foundation is there, it just needs some more ergonomic touches, imo, mmv.

And I have to agree with ED. Adobe has docking down to a science. Their apps that dock things work really well. The Vegas docks aren't bad either, allowing you to detach windows and dock other things in the detached windows.

I agree with everything you said. You said what I was trying to say, but more eloquently.

But as I said, Reaper isn't the only one to suffer from the issues you mentioned above.

Brent

[LawrenceF]

But as I said, Reaper isn't the only one to suffer from the issues you mentioned above.

Brent

Right. There are various levels of "suffrage" all over the place.

The most difficult part is (imo, mmv as usual) trying to keep it all in context. Some things (imo) get more of a "pass" due to their relatively early stage of development and some other things have reached a slightly different contextual developement stage.

Using Bitwig as an example, when they release it, it will certainly get nitpicked to death in some ways but it has to get a free pass in many ways because it will be a 1.0 and I suspect there will be various parts of it that will need refining via the real world trial and error of thousands of people actually using it. New things only appear perfect until you actually use them.

Once a thing starts hitting later versions 5, 6, 7+, some years later, some of the criticisms become (imo) much more contextually accurate or relevant because by that time some loyal users have waited patiently for some years already.

It's a little contextually wrong (imo) to rag on a 1.x or 2.x product too much. It takes about 10 years to fully develop a "fully featured" (by current standards) pro workstaton ... and even then everyone won't be happy with the feature set.

[noiseprovesnothing]

If I had tits I'd date myself!



BTW, I'm demoing Reason 7 right now. Unlimited unlocked demos FTW. I really like those synths in there. I wouldn't do my sequencing in Reason (luckily there's Rewire, but IIRC sadly Reaper cannot be a Rewire master? :sadpanda:) since with all the mouse modifier modifications in Reaper I can get the work in MIDI editor done a whole lot faster than in Reason.

I was using Reaper as a Rewire master yesterday. It works seamlessly. I was impressed.

[EvilDragon]

Ooh, awesome then! Was it Rewire slave not being possible for Reaper, then?

[Tricky-Loops]

What hasn't been said yet is that REAPER - in contrary to most other hosts - doesn't offer a multitude of ready-to-use synthesizers and samplers and so on. It excels in its built-in effect and dynamic processor plugins, but you have to expand it with good synthesizers, samplers etc. Once done, it's a great work station.

But that's why I don't recommend it to beginners. Someone who is new to DAWs needs something with a simplified GUI like MuLab where you get great built-in synthesizers like MuSynth and MUX, and you can start straight on to make music.

[EvilDragon]

Thankfully there's an awful lot of great free plugins out there.

[Jim Roseberry]

But that's why I don't recommend it to beginners. Someone who is new to DAWs needs something with a simplified GUI like MuLab where you get great built-in synthesizers like MuSynth and MUX, and you can start straight on to make music.

I get your point about included virtual instruments...
But a modular host isn't what I'd recommend to someone who's completely new to DAWs. Lot's of flexibility... but it's also a lot of "extra's" to sort thru and absorb.

[Tricky-Loops]

Thankfully there's an awful lot of great free plugins out there.

This, and furthermore I like to choose in my own way which synthesizers to buy. All other hosts have multitudes of synthesizers, sample libraries and samplers, but REAPER is different. It is a light-weight with flexibility. What you add, is what you get.

[Tricky-Loops]

But that's why I don't recommend it to beginners. Someone who is new to DAWs needs something with a simplified GUI like MuLab where you get great built-in synthesizers like MuSynth and MUX, and you can start straight on to make music.

I get your point about included virtual instruments...
But a modular host isn't what I'd recommend to someone who's completely new to DAWs. Lot's of flexibility... but it's also a lot of "extra's" to sort thru and absorb.

My first DAW was Mu.Lab several years ago, and I was happy with it. You start the program, the racks and synth & effect slots are already there, you type in a few notes, choose a synth preset, add a built-in effect and you're ready to play. I've never used the "deep editor" (the modular environment) as a beginner. That's something for professionals, and since I bought MUX, I can use it in REAPER, too.

(I muxed up my reaper... )

[LawrenceF]

Bundled instruments in these workstations are for all practical purposes, free, and very often a good bit more than just usable... especially compared to free sample players that typically don't come with any content at all.

In no way would the full Cubase or PT or Samp or Sonar ever be $1-200, even if they had no bundled instruments at all. This random idea that those companies are charging people for instruments they may not have a need for or have any use for is a false idea imo, mmv.

Look at Reverence Convo Verb that does surround + a nice IR library. $200?
Halion Sonic SE + it's 1200 sounds? Let's be fair and say $100.
Groove Agent One with all of it's drum content and kits? Say $100.

That's almost the price of the full Cubase ... and all of those are a good bit more than usable, not throwaways by any stretch... and they're all free... with Cubase... whether you need them or not.

If they were charging for the instruments and content Cubase would cost a good deal more than $500... unless they only value the software itself at $1-150.

[jeffh]

Bundled instruments in these workstations are for all practical purposes, free, and very often a good bit more than just usable... especially compared to free sample players that typically don't come with any content at all.

In no way would the full Cubase or PT or Samp or Sonar ever be $1-200, even if they had no bundled instruments at all. This random idea that those companies are charging people for instruments they may not have a need for or have any use for is a false idea imo, mmv.

Look at Reverence Convo Verb that does surround + a nice IR library. $200?
Halion Sonic SE + it's 1200 sounds? Let's be fair and say $100.
Groove Agent One with all of it's drum content and kits? Say $100.

That's almost the price of the full Cubase ... and all of those are a good bit more than usable, not throwaways by any stretch... and they're all free... with Cubase... whether you need them or not.

If they were charging for the instruments and content Cubase would cost a good deal more than $500... unless they only value the software itself at $1-150.

Agreed...

I personally find the out-of-the-box experience or Reaper to be laughable. Have you ever randomly tried to show some random person at your job Reaper on their work laptop using on-board sound? So your choices are, to download Reaper and pull up ReaSynth (which is a complete joke) to make a few lame bleep sounds, or else having to tell them "Now, let's go to KVR and find some free plugins so I can actually show Reaper to you"...

There is value in providing a more complete out-of-the-box experience, considering that people not using and synths or samplers at all in their music are a small minority now... It doesn't necessarily need to be an NI Komplete calibre suite of plugins, but FFS it's not hard to make something that's "good enough", which ReaSynth is definitely not... Surely Schwa could do it even if Justin doesn't have the expertise, why they choose not to but still bundle ReaSynth is beyond me...

[EvilDragon]

That's why it's so great that you can install Reaper with your own setup on an USB drive, along with some neat free portable plugins, and off you go. Virtual studio on an USB drive, wherever you go.

[Tricky-Loops]

Have you ever randomly tried to show some random person at your job Reaper on their work laptop using on-board sound? So your choices are, to download Reaper and pull up ReaSynth (which is a complete joke) to make a few lame bleep sounds, or else having to tell them "Now, let's go to KVR and find some free plugins so I can actually show Reaper to you"...

That's why I didn't even mention ReaSynth - because I don't know any musician that uses ReaSynth, even the free MOscillator by Meldaproduction makes better sounds than ReaSynth...

But now imagine you'd have to download Cubase to show it to your colleagues -- you would have to wait for some hours till all onboard stuff is downloaded...

That's the advantage of REAPER - a complete lightweight DAW with 7.1 MB download size!