Melodic/Harmonic Minor

[maudioradium]

Hi, I was listening to some sonic music lately and I was trying to find out what scale the music was in. After some investigation, according to research it was melodic/harmonic minor. However, these two scales don't seem to support the notes played in the track.


This is the exact point the following notes come in:

b
b
d#
e
d#
f#
d#
b
b
f#
g
f#
e
f#
d#
b

so all the notes used are:: b e d# f# g
Or in the other format: b e Eb Gb g

By using: http://www.dan-nilsson.se/scalefinder/ this told me:
E Harmonic Minor Scale (0)
E Melodic Minor Scale (0)
B Major (Ionian) Scale (1)
B Harmonic Minor Scale (1)
B Minor (Aeolian) Scale (1)
B Mixolydian Scale (1)
B Phrygian Scale (1)
Eb Locrian Scale (1)
A Dorian Scale (1)

However, when I use:
http://www.pianoworld.com/fun/vpc/piano_chords.htm for both in c and e in harmonic/melodic minor, I get the following notes:
C,D,Eb,F,G,G#,B,C ---- C,D,Eb,F,G,A,B,C ---- E,F#,G,A,B,C#,Eb,E --- E,F#,G,A,B,C,Eb,E

So, what is the scale in that sonic song? I love the Egyptian sound of it and I'm a newbie to music theory.

Thanks a lot.

[JumpingJackFlash]

what is the scale in that sonic song?

You're asking the wrong question.
What you really mean is what is the key of the song, to which the answer is (probably) E minor.

There are different forms of minor scale.
But with tonal music, what happens in minor keys is that the 6th and 7th notes are variables. They can be according to key signature, or they can be raised by one semitone.

So for example, both D-natural and D# belong to the key of E minor.

Pieces are not written in the "melodic minor" or the "harmonic minor", they're just minor.

[jancivil]

you're relying on software, 'scale finder' because you lack the tools to find out what's happening yourself, and it presents you with information you can't use, most of which is extraneous/irrelevant. then you resort to another crutch providing more useless information.

where is the home, the center of this tune, what is the clear center in terms of one note here. I'm pretty confident there is one and it is pretty obvious. this little bit of reliance on your ear is going to obviate most of these names for things you don't understand. then you should proceed, not before!

[gabebrunogarza1021]

So, what is the scale in that sonic song? I love the Egyptian sound of it and I'm a newbie to music theory.
Thanks a lot.

Based on the notes you supplied, one scale/key that keeps the melody Arabic is Alhijaz Arabic in the key of B.

[Jdudeo]

That melody is in a mode called B phrygian dominant, it uses the same notes as E harmonic minor but since it's resolving on the B (and using a lot of notes from the B major triad) it's appropriate to name the mode as one that places B as the root. It might sound complicated but basically B phrygian dominant is the mode that uses the same notes as the scale E harmonic minor but is based around the B rather than E and for the record it's not technically minor because the 3rd is major (D#), it would be more technically correct to say that the sound is dominant (which means major 3rd with minor 7th) and the phrygian dominant mode is used just as often if not more often than strict harmonic minor.

To be clear, all of the notes of B phrygian dominant are as follows:
B C D# E F# G A

Your software saw it appropriate to just name it as E harmonic minor but the software's shortcoming is that it's not looking at where the melody is resolving and what notes are being emphasized.

[narapela]

That melody is in a mode called B phrygian dominant, it uses the same notes as E harmonic minor

Cool ... I could see from the melody posted that it was centered on B, not E. Thanks for IDing the scale. I must admit I've never really explored the minor modes. Seems like there's some interesting sounds to be discovered there. This Wikipedia article has a bit more info on the phrygian dominant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_dominant_scale

[VicDiesel]

So, what is the scale in that sonic song? I love the Egyptian sound of it and I'm a newbie to music theory.
Thanks a lot.

Based on the notes you supplied, one scale/key that keeps the melody Arabic is Alhijaz Arabic in the key of B.

If it sounds Egyptian to you, I'm definitely voting for B Hijaz. Though it is kinda strange that the melody does't hit the "C", which gives you the augmented second C-D#, which is so characteristic.

Take a listen to that surf guitar classic Miserlou.

It's the same notes as E harmonic minor, but it depends on what note has the root feel.

Victor.

[jancivil]

what is the scale in that sonic song?

You're asking the wrong question.
What you really mean is what is the key of the song, to which the answer is (probably) E minor.

don't take it personally, in fact I'd like to help you here, but again you're bringing preconceptions from a particular focus to something that it doesn't apply to, with a lot of confidence you're providing the 'correct' answer.

Pieces are not written in the "melodic minor" or the "harmonic minor", they're just minor.

here the 'scale', or 'mode' (western terms) might be the crucial thing. If this was in fact 'Hijaz' the 'piece' is 'written in Hijaz'. This is alien to you but that doesn't make it false. I don't know how your statement is true to begin with. I think this is called 'opinion'. Stated as fact, but I doubt it.

It could be the 'fifth mode of E harmonic minor' by conception, but whoever wrote it may have just come up with it by ear. The primary thing to do in music is get it by ear. "Scale Finder", an algorithm provided guesses from a set and some names. More or less what you're doing with your opinion 'probably E minor'.

I want to hear something before I try to say 'this is _'.

per other threads, I won't be surprised to see an objection to the name 'phrygian dominant'. But if there's a wiki on it, that name has gained prevalence to this extent, I think we have to grant it its space. That said, if there is an absence of C, the term 'Hijaz' isn't so meaningful. (Beyond that, 'Hijaz' is not formed from 12 EDO intervals at all.)

this thread brings up more than one problem of trying to apply language concepts, and 'theory' talk to music {cart before the horse}, rather than analyses qua the music.

[fmr]

So, what is the scale in that sonic song? I love the Egyptian sound of it and I'm a newbie to music theory.
Thanks a lot.

Based on the notes you supplied, one scale/key that keeps the melody Arabic is Alhijaz Arabic in the key of B.

Very interesting work, but I think you "dressed" the song too much. Not that it could not be that way, but the video in You Tube doesn't sound like that. I would agree more with the altered Phrygian mode in B, like Jdudeo said.

[gabebrunogarza1021]

Very interesting work, but I think you "dressed" the song too much. Not that it could not be that way, but the video in You Tube doesn't sound like that.

I was more focusing on the scale interval I suggested (0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12) would sound like a cool match to that melody.
I was in no way trying to sound like the song in the video.

As for the "dressed up" comment…
I took that melody and filtered it thru customized Logic 9 Environment Macros which generated more notes then cabled to another Macro to adjusted those notes to the scale interval (0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12) for the Key of B, then applied those notes to the two ZebraHZ instruments, one of which is playing the original Melody.
Then doing an extra cabling with those Macros, I filtered to another set of Macros to generate more notes, applied the scale interval (0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12) for the Key of B and applied to the two bass instruments.
Until I MIDI record all those MIDI notes, I'm really not "dressing up" anything at the moment, the Macros are doing everything.

I would agree more with the altered Phrygian mode in B, like Jdudeo said.

At this web site and the Lucy web site I use these as references for musical scales.
http://www.dolmetsch.com/pianochords.htm

So getting back to the scale interval of 0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12, here's several matches and notice Alhijaz Arabic (not hijaz by the way), it's the first in the list.
That's the only reason I posted that name but any one of the other names can be switched out since they're using the same scale interval of 0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12.

ScaleInterval ......ScaleName
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Alhijaz Arabic
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Arabic (5th mode harmonic minor)
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Dorico Flamenco
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Jewish (Ahaba Rabba)
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Jewish Scale II
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 JR 14 VakulaÅbharanam
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Lucy Phrygian Dominant, Dorico Flamenco, Avaha Raba, Spanish, Folk, Jewish Major
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Maqam Humayun
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Maqam Zengule
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Mela Vakulabharanam
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Mixolydian b6 b9 (5th mode of harmonic minor)
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Mixolydian b9 b13 (5th mode of harmonic minor)
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Phrygian Dominant (5th mode of harmonic minor)
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Phrygian Major (5th mode of harmonic minor)
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Raga Jogiya
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Raga Vativasanta (bhairavi)
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Spanish Gypsy
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Spanish Major
0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12 Spanish Phrygian I

To focus on the name is missing the point of the scale interval since that's what's going to be played (the notes) not a name.

[Jdudeo]

That melody is in a mode called B phrygian dominant, it uses the same notes as E harmonic minor

Cool ... I could see from the melody posted that it was centered on B, not E. Thanks for IDing the scale. I must admit I've never really explored the minor modes. Seems like there's some interesting sounds to be discovered there. This Wikipedia article has a bit more info on the phrygian dominant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_dominant_scale

Glad I could help, if you're interested in exploring other minor modes I would recommend Dorian, Lydian b3 and the 7th mode of melodic minor (otherwise known as the altered scale) for starters, some cool sounds to be had.

In regards to other comments about referring to the phrygian dominant as the Alhijaz Arabic scale, I'm sure it's correct to say that but I'm not sure many other people would recognize that name. It seems to me the only reason we started naming musical ideas like scales and chords is so people could communicate them with each other, also the Arabs were probably also not in 12 tone temperament like western classical music, so they may not hear 12TET phrygian dominant as the same thing as what they're using, but that's just my speculation.

[gabebrunogarza1021]

In regards to other comments about referring to the phrygian dominant as the Alhijaz Arabic scale, I'm sure it's correct to say that but I'm not sure many other people would recognize that name.

Again, don't focus on the name, the importance if you're going to use scales is the intervals, in this case 0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12.
Now while that one website has names to the scale intervals, I've seen other websites that have the same scale interval with a similar name, not the exact name.

[Jdudeo]

In regards to other comments about referring to the phrygian dominant as the Alhijaz Arabic scale, I'm sure it's correct to say that but I'm not sure many other people would recognize that name.

Again, don't focus on the name, the importance if you're going to use scales is the intervals, in this case 0 1 4 5 7 8 10 12.
Now while that one website has names to the scale intervals, I've seen other websites that have the same scale interval with a similar name, not the exact name.

I am merely specifying the name most people would understand, I know that the importance of scales is their intervals, but if you're a musician in a jazz-like setting where you're improvising with other musicians, you don't have time to spell out where every scale degree is and if you took your cue from some website and said "this section is in B Alhijaz arabic" nobody would know what you're talking about, whereas if you just say "phrygian dominant, phrygian with a major 3rd" anybody worth their salt would instantly pick it up.

If you deal with music in a setting that doesn't require this kind of interaction then yes, the name doesn't make a difference, but I would still recommend remembering it for the sake of good practice.

[Lazos]

Gabelbrunogarza: Alhijaz and Hijaz are the same: Al is an Arabic prefix which either means "the" or refers to "the family of". Scales are grouped into families in the Turkish and Arabic worlds (as I'm sure they are in some other traditions).

Doesn't sound like Arabic hijaz or Turkish hicaz to me, probably because of the equal temperament. I don't trust synth or DAW developers to get these non-western scale tunings accurate. It's not their field. A dead give away is when they have a scale that's just called "Arabic"

Phrygian dominant also tends to be called "Hollywood Hijaz" by English-speaking players of Mid East music, as on a 12 TET instrument like guitar or piano, it lacks the characteristic slight raising of the second degree and slight lowering of the third degree. Some forms of hijaz/hicaz also raise the seventh degree from a minor seventh to a major seventh (in which case, the sixth degree is also very slightly raised and the seventh slightly flattened to produce that same characteristic augmented second in the upper tetrachord.

And nice melody, btw. Perhaps a bit repetitive, but a good start.

[maudioradium]

Wow I never expected so many replies and so much thought into it. I was really hoping it would be simple, where someone would say "oh sure, that's the X and in that X you can play these notes: x x x x' turns out it's incredibly more complex. Does anyone know where I can find something that shows me acceptable notes to play together? I'm really bad at playing the keyboard but I'd like to get a memory of certain notes which work together so I can hit the notes that I know work well and then be able to play tunes on those notes.

I don't know if that's a scale / key or whatever.