Best so far on my system.darkflame23 wrote: I'd definitely be asking the client about the two bass booms, as to me they don't sound very natural with the rest of the track, but of course I would respect the client's wishes if they were intentional.
FLAC Link:
http://darkflame.hermetech.net/HermetechMaster.flac
New Mastering Challenge - May 2013
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- KVRian
- 1325 posts since 6 Mar, 2001 from London, UK
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Hermetech Mastering Hermetech Mastering https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7418 - KVRAF
- 1619 posts since 30 May, 2003 from Milan, Italy
Thanks! Took about 30-40 mins all inclusive.
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- KVRAF
- 11395 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo
You have a lot of people attending the mastering sessions? In the past few years it's become a real rarity here. Only about 10% of the clients actually bother showing up, usually when I specifically ask them to (when I've heard the mixes before the mastering session and I've noticed some oddities that need to be discussed face to face).darkflame23 wrote: PS: OT but downloaded your white paper on "new" K-System CompyFox, and am looking forward to reading it. I use my own "bastardised" version of the K System for metering/SPL in the room. If I stuck to standard K System 90% of my clients would be asking for it louder!
Personally I think using the K system results in way too loud listening levels for my comfort. I like lower levels for mastering, occasionally boosting the output to hear it loud but only for a few minutes.
Cheers!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
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- KVRAF
- 11395 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo
Here's an alternative master from me.. I still can't keep to the 5 plugin limit as I use up two plugins simply doing the M/S decoding but I think the limit is ridiculous anyways.. depending on what EQ plugin you choose you either use one, two or three (based on how many bands it has available). 
Anyhow, this version is much more scooped in the mids, going for a squished/pop rock thing. Quite exaggerated even. I also noticed that there seems to be a running resonance around 2316hz which helps when it's reduced a bit (I used Equilibrium set to the Neve88 model and a Q of 20 with 6dB of negative gain to notch it out). Am I hearing things that aren't there?
FLAC alternative master
MP3 alternative master
Original unprocessed mix
I still think this song benefits from a "squashed"/glued kind of compression. The drums are poking out too much for my aesthetics but if the band insisted on having punchy drums instead of glued drums then of course that's what I'd do.. but for now I'll stick to gluing things. It might be a bit overcooked on this example though.. I'm still limited by only having headphones to listen with.
Cheers!
bManic
Anyhow, this version is much more scooped in the mids, going for a squished/pop rock thing. Quite exaggerated even. I also noticed that there seems to be a running resonance around 2316hz which helps when it's reduced a bit (I used Equilibrium set to the Neve88 model and a Q of 20 with 6dB of negative gain to notch it out). Am I hearing things that aren't there?
FLAC alternative master
MP3 alternative master
Original unprocessed mix
I still think this song benefits from a "squashed"/glued kind of compression. The drums are poking out too much for my aesthetics but if the band insisted on having punchy drums instead of glued drums then of course that's what I'd do.. but for now I'll stick to gluing things. It might be a bit overcooked on this example though.. I'm still limited by only having headphones to listen with.
Cheers!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
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- KVRAF
- 11395 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo
Sound good man! Add the narrow cut at 2316Hz and add a bit of glue with any relatively fast compressor (or just the typical SSL type at 0.1ms attack, auto release) and you'd have exactly what I was trying to go for!
Very stylish!
Cheers!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
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- KVRian
- 784 posts since 3 Apr, 2013 from Belgium
bmanic wrote:I still can't keep to the 5 plugin limit as I use up two plugins simply doing the M/S decoding but I think the limit is ridiculous anyways.. depending on what EQ plugin you choose you either use one, two or three (based on how many bands it has available).
totally, in my "master" I used 5 plugins but I don't count the many processes involved ^^31-Band Graphic Eq by Sir Elliot with tape section on -> EQ + Tape Saturation
stripBUS by SKnote -> Solid State Saturation + 4K compression + Mid/side expansion
5orcery by Platinum Ears -> Multiband Compression + Saturation
Roundtone -> Tape EQ + Tape Saturation + Tape Compression + Wow
NastyVCS by Variety of Sound -> Tube Saturation + Pulltec Bass trick and Air in the EQ and HP/LP filters
So I've used 5 plugins but 13 processes at least
and I don't include the numerous analyzers, dithering and so on. I didn't limit since I've tried to match the original volume that was very low...This was why my question about Ozone, if someone uses 5 Ozone 5 on their master they have access to 10 EQ, 5 multiband compressors (in mid/side lets say 10), 5 multiband saturators (with many diff saturations options) (10 in m/s), 5 multiband stereo enchancers, 5 limiters (:D !) and 5 reverbs
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Hermetech Mastering Hermetech Mastering https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7418
- KVRAF
- 1619 posts since 30 May, 2003 from Milan, Italy
thanks for the kind words on my master, bmanic! i prefer to work mostly in the analogue domain as i like the sound and can work faster that way.bmanic wrote:You have a lot of people attending the mastering sessions? In the past few years it's become a real rarity here. Only about 10% of the clients actually bother showing up, usually when I specifically ask them to (when I've heard the mixes before the mastering session and I've noticed some oddities that need to be discussed face to face).darkflame23 wrote: PS: OT but downloaded your white paper on "new" K-System CompyFox, and am looking forward to reading it. I use my own "bastardised" version of the K System for metering/SPL in the room. If I stuck to standard K System 90% of my clients would be asking for it louder!
Personally I think using the K system results in way too loud listening levels for my comfort. I like lower levels for mastering, occasionally boosting the output to hear it loud but only for a few minutes.
Cheers!
bManic
nope, attended sessions are extremely rare here too. what i mean is that if you master strictly to bob's k-12 standard with meters calibrated to that standard, you are looking at a maximum RMS of around -12, which is WAY too quiet for a lot of my clients (mainly electronic music). i mastered a hip hop album the week before last, where i pushed the first track to about -6 RMS, but that was the client's express wish before starting the project (it had to sound "competitive" in a random playlist with jay-z and kanye etc.), and the client was extremely happy. it's fine for people to sit in their armchairs complaining about mastering engineers and loudness, but in the field it's sometimes a necessity. i don't like it, and am continually advising against it, but at the end of the day i'm there to serve the client's wishes.
anyway, hence why i use a "bastardised" version of the k system. i basically use the 4 channel meter (actually two show the peak and other two show the RMS levels for left and right) in RME's digicheck with the K12 preset, but i set the dB fall off to 10dB per second, set the RMS marker to "slow", and use the weighting. this "looks" like k12 but is actually quite a bit louder, and i do sometimes still go into the red!
i can post the exact settings if anyone is interested. but i'm not really staring at the meters when i'm actually mastering, usually closing my eyes and twiddling the knobs, haha!tbh, i feel there's way too much emphasis on metering standards really, it's best to just set a level you are comfortable working with, and stick to it. you soon learn what sounds "right", what sounds too loud, and what sounds too quiet etc., and with a calibrated monitor controller it's easy to click the dBs until you can actually "see" how many dBs louder or quieter something is than your own standard. after a while you don't even need to do that. i have 3 main monitor positions for working, one for tracking (highest), one for mixing (slightly lower), and one for mastering (lowest). for pleasure listening i just adjust until it sounds right. the crookwood console makes all this very easy. it's basically the "d-system", haha (from dave collins).
in the room i calibrate to 77dB instead of bob's 83, because like you say, that's WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY too loud for most modern mastered pop and rock music. we have to remember bob's mainly working with audiophile classical, acoustic, and jazz music. we also have to remember that RMS is a pretty bad measure of perceived loudness (as is peak level, as is VU etc., you really neeed to "learn" to read them) yadda yadda, but am sure you are aware of this already! at least things are getting better with the new ITU/EBU standards and things like LEQ.
yah, i ranted too long, if you made it this far in salute you!
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Hermetech Mastering Hermetech Mastering https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7418
- KVRAF
- 1619 posts since 30 May, 2003 from Milan, Italy
re: the long plugin chains people are using for ITB mastering, i'd like to suggest that great masters should easily be achievable with one great eq (not dynamic), one great compressor (not multiband), and (post 1992) one great limiter. thousands of the best records ever made have been mastered that way, but to each their own!
i guess a lot of the "colour" plugs people are using are not necessary when the gear is analogue and contains its own colour (e.g. i have ten transformers in my analogue chain, and depending on the gain staging between the devices they can be anything from pretty transparent to outright gnarly).
anyway, maybe a slightly different perspective from me, i'll shut up as i could talk about this stuff forever (and dont want to bore people to death...)
i guess a lot of the "colour" plugs people are using are not necessary when the gear is analogue and contains its own colour (e.g. i have ten transformers in my analogue chain, and depending on the gain staging between the devices they can be anything from pretty transparent to outright gnarly).
anyway, maybe a slightly different perspective from me, i'll shut up as i could talk about this stuff forever (and dont want to bore people to death...)
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- KVRAF
- 11395 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo
Agreed! But unfortunately I find a lot of the work coming my way needs some serious "rescuing" which means specialized plugins and very unorthodox tricks.
A fairly decent mix usually only needs a bit of balancing and that's it.. perhaps a few small corrections to the subs/bass. I rarely use compressors as they were intended but rather as "rhythm enhancers", to strengthen the groove or loosen it up (by setting the "wrong" release time).
I'm a bit tired of all the limiting though. Mastering has become a silly race for the loudest, barely tolerable noise.. so the only challenge in some projects is to figure out how you can absolutely kill the tune without making it intolerable to listen to.
I'd probably had a much better mastering career in the 80's.
Cheers!
bManic
A fairly decent mix usually only needs a bit of balancing and that's it.. perhaps a few small corrections to the subs/bass. I rarely use compressors as they were intended but rather as "rhythm enhancers", to strengthen the groove or loosen it up (by setting the "wrong" release time).
I'm a bit tired of all the limiting though. Mastering has become a silly race for the loudest, barely tolerable noise.. so the only challenge in some projects is to figure out how you can absolutely kill the tune without making it intolerable to listen to.
I'd probably had a much better mastering career in the 80's.
Cheers!
bManic
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
"They don't ban hate speech; they ban speech they hate." -an oracle
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Hermetech Mastering Hermetech Mastering https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7418
- KVRAF
- 1619 posts since 30 May, 2003 from Milan, Italy
Agree with all you say!
I am slowly getting better produced/mixed tracks in, which are more of a joy to work on, but I still also get my fair share of clangers that are in serious need of rescue, haha!
I never, ever, ever do more than 1.5dB of GR on my comps, and use them like you do, subliminal groove and colour machines! IMO, the setting of the Attack and Release times is one of the most fun/rewarding, and IMPORTANT parts of the entire mastering process. I don't think there are any right/wrong settings, just as long as it sound good. My comps don't have any numbers on them (knobs just show FAST to SLOW!!!), so I'm always just tweaking by ear. Same for EQ, close eyes, twiddle knob till its sounds good!
If the client wants stupidly loud then I use a combo of clipping the Croowkood ADC, and Elephant. Always seems to get me there, and sounds better than just using limiting to get there, it's definitely one of the benefits of having a good D/A/D loop.
I'd say around 50% of the clients understand about silly loudness levels now, and aren't so concerned about it, but unfortunately the other 50% still are. I try to explain that it'll all be over when things like Apple's SoundCheck or ReplayGain are turned on in media players by default, and then their tracks will sound absolutely HORRIBLE when played back next to tracks with more natural dynamics (at the same perceived loudness level), and then they'll all be coming back to me in droves, asking, "I don't suppose you kept any high res versions of our masters without the limiting, did you?"... Haha!
I am slowly getting better produced/mixed tracks in, which are more of a joy to work on, but I still also get my fair share of clangers that are in serious need of rescue, haha!
I never, ever, ever do more than 1.5dB of GR on my comps, and use them like you do, subliminal groove and colour machines! IMO, the setting of the Attack and Release times is one of the most fun/rewarding, and IMPORTANT parts of the entire mastering process. I don't think there are any right/wrong settings, just as long as it sound good. My comps don't have any numbers on them (knobs just show FAST to SLOW!!!), so I'm always just tweaking by ear. Same for EQ, close eyes, twiddle knob till its sounds good!
If the client wants stupidly loud then I use a combo of clipping the Croowkood ADC, and Elephant. Always seems to get me there, and sounds better than just using limiting to get there, it's definitely one of the benefits of having a good D/A/D loop.
I'd say around 50% of the clients understand about silly loudness levels now, and aren't so concerned about it, but unfortunately the other 50% still are. I try to explain that it'll all be over when things like Apple's SoundCheck or ReplayGain are turned on in media players by default, and then their tracks will sound absolutely HORRIBLE when played back next to tracks with more natural dynamics (at the same perceived loudness level), and then they'll all be coming back to me in droves, asking, "I don't suppose you kept any high res versions of our masters without the limiting, did you?"... Haha!
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- KVRist
- 153 posts since 21 Apr, 2009
http://puu.sh/2Ozk1.wav
J1000 MQ57 - bring out the vocal, clean the low-mid a bit
J1000 QX24 - to give more clarity
Bootsy RescueMK2 - stereo enhancement, width knob to 1 o' clock
Bootsy DensityMKIII - glueing, only 1-3 green box GR
VladG Limiter No6
J1000 MQ57 - bring out the vocal, clean the low-mid a bit
J1000 QX24 - to give more clarity
Bootsy RescueMK2 - stereo enhancement, width knob to 1 o' clock
Bootsy DensityMKIII - glueing, only 1-3 green box GR
VladG Limiter No6
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- KVRAF
- 2656 posts since 18 Mar, 2011 from Spain
Mastering Challenge - Original
·First step: FL Parametric EQ 2
- Cut all below 50Hz.
Cut all over 16Khz.
Extra +2 dBs on low freqs at 80Hz
Extra +2 dBs on 250Hz range to bring the vocal in front.
Extra +2 dBs on 4000/8000 Hz to make clean high freqs.
- Extra harmonics on the low freqs, middle and highs.
Extra drive/saturation.
- Extra +3 dBs on the SIDE part to wide the stereo.
- Cut again below 50 Hz.
Add slightly extra +1/2 dB from 8000 Hz ramp up until 20000 Hz to make it cleaner.
- Limited to 0.0 db
Threshold at -12 dB
Compression Ratio 4:1
Semi fast Attack.
Semi slow Release.
Re-gain at +6 dBs.
The guy who recorded the vocals, the drums and the guitars did a great job, so i didn't have to do too much. The original sounded very nice itself.
Anyway, i'm still learning mastering.
Have a nice day
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Hermetech Mastering Hermetech Mastering https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7418
- KVRAF
- 1619 posts since 30 May, 2003 from Milan, Italy
I'm gonna wait until the 20th (like the OP suggested), then I will download all the entries, listen, and comment within a couple of days.
I don't believe in "revisions" in these shoot-outs (it's not fair unless everyone gets to do one, but then it just drags on forever), so I shall only be assessing people's first tries. If you're entry link is not up on the 20th, then I also shan't assess your master.
I can't hold my tongue on the above, and haven't actually listened to it yet (sorry, will do on the 20th), but you cut everything below 50Hz and above 16kHz, and added THREE dB!!! to the sides??? And why are you cutting the bass, then boosting the bass, then cutting it again? Sorry to be harsh, but wow, I can't really imagine how it's going to sound...
Anyone contacted the artist/client to see if they might be interested in listening to the entries? I'd be happy to do it if not. I thought it was kind of cheeky that the OP went ahead with it in the first place...
I don't believe in "revisions" in these shoot-outs (it's not fair unless everyone gets to do one, but then it just drags on forever), so I shall only be assessing people's first tries. If you're entry link is not up on the 20th, then I also shan't assess your master.
I can't hold my tongue on the above, and haven't actually listened to it yet (sorry, will do on the 20th), but you cut everything below 50Hz and above 16kHz, and added THREE dB!!! to the sides??? And why are you cutting the bass, then boosting the bass, then cutting it again? Sorry to be harsh, but wow, I can't really imagine how it's going to sound...
Anyone contacted the artist/client to see if they might be interested in listening to the entries? I'd be happy to do it if not. I thought it was kind of cheeky that the OP went ahead with it in the first place...
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- KVRAF
- 2656 posts since 18 Mar, 2011 from Spain
1st - I cutted the unwanted subs freqs under 50Hz to avoid artifacts or distortion in normal speakers/headphones. The same about the higher freqs.darkflame23 wrote:I can't hold my tongue on the above, and haven't actually listened to it yet (sorry, will do on the 20th), but you cut everything below 50Hz and above 16kHz, and added THREE dB!!! to the sides??? And why are you cutting the bass, then boosting the bass, then cutting it again? Sorry to be harsh, but wow, I can't really imagine how it's going to sound...
2nd - Raised a bit the ones over 80Hz - 120Hz range so the low-middle freqs (bass) will be consistent and with presence. The same for the mids (voice) and the highs.
So i'm not cutting and boosting the same freqs.
3rd - Spreaded the stereo without touching the MID so the stereo sounds more "full" on the sides.
4th - So as i added the extra saturation and harmonic content in some places 400Hz - 5000Hz - 15000Hz mostly, i had to equalized (cut) again the low freqs and add brightness to the whole thing, generally. It is not the same add harmonics or saturation than EQ.
5th - Compressed and limited.
I don't have professional monitors and i used freebies (despite the commercial stuff i have), specially for those who don't have money for commercial plugins can do something with these.
My english explanation maybe is a bit poor, i'm not english native speaker, so maybe i didn't explain myself very well.
Anyway, i will wait for you to listen to the track and tell me how it sounds as soon as possible, i would like to know what do you think.
In my system it sounds very transparent without extreme colouring as i always like it.
But all depends on what system are people listening these mastered tracks.
Have a nice day