will notation programs be phased out?

[jeffh]

I actually don't think "old VERSUS new." I just don't agree that new REPLACES old. I believe that things get added to, but really you don't have to consider something like notation and notation programs obsolete.

Why not have notation AND piano rolls? Is that so impossible?

Nobody's saying you can't have notation editors... Nobody is petitioning the existing notation editor developers to stop making them just on principle that they're no longer needed... but new very often replaces old, look at how many things have been consolidated into your PC since the 80s?

However, demand for notation editors has been declining for years because most music people (like myself) just don't have much use for them in our normal workflow banging away at a MIDI keyboard and editing in a piano roll... Therefore, most developers won't spend years of their life creating notation editors that nobody is going to use... Of course people still use notation in one way or another, but it went from 99.99% people in the 70s, to perhaps 50% today? Most of that 50% probably still have no need for an actual PC notation editor...

[deastman]

The old stuff is the polar opposite of dissonant, so I will personally choose to throw away all 300 years of it because nobody currently living likes the way it sounds, thanks...

I still like the way it sounds, but thanks for speaking on my behalf anyway.

[jeffh]

I still like the way it sounds, but thanks for speaking on my behalf anyway.

You want some cheese to go with that whine? Clearly you're not my target audience, I suggest I'm not going to embrace certain music theory in my productions, and you take offense to that?

How can I make this right in your mind? Should I start embracing Beethoven?

Like many, when I started out over 10 years ago, the first thing I did was purchase a music theory book because it seemed like the thing to do. Of course, no matter how hard I tried, those classical chord progressions just sounded awful and boring in my DnB (because Dubstep didn't exist yet) and Trance productions, I eventually figured out that I actually needed those dissonant Jazz and Funk chords, but only that which was totally void of any classical influence...

Obviously, anything I'm saying here is my opinion, so if I'm wrong and XYZ is still soooooo incredibly relevant, then that should be an obvious truth that doesn't even require defending... But this is just how people are, they get locked into whatever music they liked when they were young and refuse to let go of it. My father always listened to the "Oldies" radio station in the car in the 80s and 90s, the local Rock scene where I live is dominated by Led Zeppelin and Aerosmith tribute bands, and even my oldskool party people don't want to go out because of that "new rave music the kids listen to now". So yes, (older) people do cling to things long after they're no longer relevant.

Every day I'm grateful that even though I'm in my 30s and can still get down with what the kids are listening to now

[trimph1]

What was the topic again?

We went from notation being taken out to dissonance versus( for some ) consonance....

[fmr]

Avid getting rid of the sibelius team.

I think you are confusing a small amount of trees with the forest. Avid is getting rid of everything/everybody, and that is for a longtime already.
And the Sibelius team was immediately hired by Steinberg, which is the maker of the most popular DAW in the world (or at least one of the most populars), and which have invested very much in the notation module of that workstation (in case you didn't notice).
Logic also always had a very strong notation module. The same goes for Digital Performer. Even Sonar has notation editing (although somehow less developed than their competitors). So, what exactly is not being demanded and/or disappearing?

[arkmabat]

Anvil studio supports vst if that's your thing...

http://www.anvilstudio.com/

[fmr]

I actually don't think "old VERSUS new." I just don't agree that new REPLACES old. I believe that things get added to, but really you don't have to consider something like notation and notation programs obsolete.

Why not have notation AND piano rolls? Is that so impossible?

Nobody's saying you can't have notation editors... Nobody is petitioning the existing notation editor developers to stop making them just on principle that they're no longer needed... but new very often replaces old, look at how many things have been consolidated into your PC since the 80s?

However, demand for notation editors has been declining for years because most music people (like myself) just don't have much use for them in our normal workflow banging away at a MIDI keyboard and editing in a piano roll... Therefore, most developers won't spend years of their life creating notation editors that nobody is going to use... Of course people still use notation in one way or another, but it went from 99.99% people in the 70s, to perhaps 50% today? Most of that 50% probably still have no need for an actual PC notation editor...

99,99% of people in the 70s? And 50% now? Really? Where did you get those figures?

[fmr]

Every day I'm grateful that even though I'm in my 30s and can still get down with what the kids are listening to now

You mean, Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga, Rihanna and Adèle?

[jeffh]

You mean, Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga, Rihanna and Adèle?

Justin Bieber is a cool dude, his music is purely meant for 16 y/o girls though, so I'm not his target audience anyways...

Lady Gaga is interesting... So is Adele...

...and all of the above have pretty much made it big singing atop on electronic music... but not even the good electronic music, what we always called "Gay House", or the genre of house music they play in gay clubs (not that there's anything wrong with that...)

but while Rihanna may be void of any talent and is generally one of the most epic fails of our lifetime, I must admit to stealing a few of her dance moves when I play live:

[jancivil]

relevance to whom? as if music is reinvented by every generation, and novelty is everything? this is like the guy last night making the analogy that 'e-drums' is an upgrade to 'acoustic drums' like Windows 7 was an upgrade from XP.

OK, you like Rock, I get it... but doing something exactly the same way it's already been done 10/20 years ago has never been the path to musical success for anybody, and the terminal decline of Rock genres since peaking in the 80s and 90s is evident...

Notice how pretty much every decade for at least 100 years now has "reinvented" pretty much all popular music? Notice how radio stations are compartmentalized by whether they play music from the 50s/60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, (nobody plays music from the 2000s) or current music? I think your assertion shows your age, and your defensiveness proves that you know what I'm saying is true...

you don't get it. you have chosen to narrow things down rather severely according to your word 'relevant' which pretty much stands in for 'new'. You're insulating yourself against wider knowledge out of a typical adolescent arrogance. It strikes me your comment, you're able to get down with the kids. You're thirty and this is your discourse. Whew.

MY defensiveness? I haven't the tiniest iota of care about what you think. You haven't the least inkling what I think or do outside of my specific remarks. You're having at your parents with that, via me as straw man.


"doing something exactly the same way it's already been done 10/20 years ago" - but wait! it's been 'reinvented' every decade hasn't it? It's complete nonsense, what you type here. It's impossible to read this blather. One thing comes across, you think newer means more relevant. Yet implicit here is that nothing is new. I know what you say is true? You aren't making any sense, your very premise is half-baked at best.

[jeffh]

you don't get it. you have chosen to narrow things down rather severely according to your word 'relevant' which pretty much stands in for 'new'.

Yeah... Because being formulaic with a formula that was already done to death 10 or more years prior is just pointless... Unless.... You have something **new** to add to it...

You're insulating yourself against wider knowledge out of a typical adolescent arrogance. It strikes me your comment, you're able to get down with the kids. You're thirty and this is your discourse. Whew.

MY defensiveness? I haven't the tiniest iota of care about what you think. You haven't the least inkling what I think or do outside of my specific remarks. You're having at your parents with that, via me as straw man.

and you're response: "OMG, he needs to shut up about this stuff being obsolete before people start believing it and it becomes even more obsolete that it already was!!!"

"doing something exactly the same way it's already been done 10/20 years ago" - but wait! it's been 'reinvented' every decade hasn't it? It's complete nonsense, what you type here. It's impossible to read this blather. One thing comes across, you think newer means more relevant. Yet implicit here is that nothing is new. I know what you say is true? You aren't making any sense, your very premise is half-baked at best.

Well, let's hear how old you are and what music you're into... I won't comment one way or another, we'll just let the facts stand and people to come to their own conclusion. Fair enough?

[trimph1]

mmmm...hip hop has been around for a couple of decades, so has a lot of so called popular music...if we are going to argue 'new' 'vs' 'old' let's get some facts straight...

Check out works by Satie, Cage, Ives, Branca, et cetera...dissonance? Talk about raising strawmen....sigh

[whyterabbyt]

Notation in general will always be needed by people for its intended purpose; it is really nothing more than a symbolic set of instructions, created by the composer, for a performer, indicating what is required to be done to carry out a performance.

Western classical notation, which is what the OP seems to have restricted his vision to, will always be necessary to those people who wish to carry out this process within the musical structures derived from western classical music.
To my mind, the question is not whether that form of notation will be phased out, something which seems incredibly unlikely unless the entire historical legacy of western music were to be somehow deprecated, but whether adequate alternate notation systems will be provided which support other descriptions of composition/performance. At present, the piano rolls of DAWs actually function as an alternate notation system, but they're inherently crude (and nonstandard) in comparison to the established stave-based system, and they have basically failed to provide anything musically significant beyond a basic transliteration of the underlying note data. The piano roll isnt descriptive of a performance, it is the performance.
Give that, western stave notation, despite certain inherent inadequacies for musical forms further outside its own 'cultural remit', would appear far more flexible, concise and descriptive for the purpose, so no, I dont see it being 'phased out' unless something significantly and ubiquitously better comes along, and the basic piano roll is not that; its the minimum possible abstraction, and many people require a higher level of abstraction.
If someone doesnt understand that, they're probably missing the point of what notation is. However that doesnt mean that more complex notation than the piano roll provides is needed; conversely the piano roll, or UI-defined alternates, dont somehow make stave notation redundant.

[Nanakai]

how long before notation and notation programs are a thing of the past? as far as typical musical compositions go for the mainstream electronic musician composer poser?

2 weeks, 5 days, 13 hours, 4 minutes and 7 seconds from this post.

[whyterabbyt]

how long before notation and notation programs are a thing of the past? as far as typical musical compositions go for the mainstream electronic musician composer poser?

2 weeks, 5 days, 13 hours, 4 minutes and 7 seconds from this post.

wake up, donny.