Using Reason Refills OUTSIDE of Reason?

[Budbud]

Back when I was just playing around with things and still foolishly taking the scribbling of the music production media to heart, I sunk a bit of money into Reason and Refills. Well, I came to find that I couldn't stand doing productions in Reason, so I've only ever used it as a sound module, ReWired into a proper DAW. Mostly some of their refills.


This is my problem though. It can be fun when I'm just playing around, but when I'm actually doing serious work, I find myself not using the Refills that I own because they're such a pain to quickly and simply call up in the first place and I know that it's going to be an annoyance that I have to go through every single time I open that project up in my proper DAW, if I use any ReWired Reason tracks in the project.


So, I just end up throwing something from SampleTank or some other vst on the track, JUST because it's right there and it's instant and it keeps my work-flow moving and I know that it will load up automatically with the project every time I open it. I do this even when I know that I probably have a better sounding patch for that instrument on some Refill. Usually, I tell myself I'm just going to use this or that vst for now, and when I get ready for final mixdown, I'll swap it out with a better sounding patch in one of my Refills. Thing is, by the time it gets to that point, I've usually tweaked that "stand in" place holder sound to something I can live with and I actually get used to hearing THAT sound in the arrangement and end up not preferring the "better" patch in the end anyway.


I've waited and waited for Props to listen to calls for either making Reason a vst in and of itself or opening Record up to plugins. Recently, I've come to the realization that being odd and quirky and ignoring the changes and trends of the market and the demands of the customers is some kind of Swedish corporate personality disorder, as we saw from the likes of Volvo and Saab, and sadly, we see how well that worked out for them.


So, is there ANY plugin sampler that I can use my Refills in, or is it time to consider just selling my entire Propellerhead lot and using that money towards purchasing something I could use with a smile instead of a groaning sigh of exasperation?

[mothergarage]

Two things come to mind:

First: The only possible way to use refills (the included wav/aiff/rex-files, that is) is to use the refill unpacker. I don't know if any other vst-sampler is able to read nn-xt or nn19 patches.

Second: Propellerheads could have another Rewire version up their sleeves, which should be 64bit too. But I guess this would only make sense, when Ableton Live is 64bit as well, as this is the most used combination. And in this future version it could probably be possible to load DAW and connected Reason/Record files at once.

[tibah]

First: The only possible way to use refills (the included wav/aiff/rex-files, that is) is to use the refill unpacker.

Which is not officially supported by Propellerheads.

[Budbud]

Two things come to mind:


Second: Propellerheads could have another Rewire version up their sleeves, which should be 64bit too. But I guess this would only make sense, when Ableton Live is 64bit as well, as this is the most used combination. And in this future version it could probably be possible to load DAW and connected Reason/Record files at once.

Funny that you should say that! I was thinking after I wrote my initial post that a new iteration of ReWire could somehow possibly make connecting to Reason function much more like a standard plugin. I was thinking this as I thought about how they've updated vst to versions 2 and 3, and I only ever see ReWire branded as ReWire, not ReWire 2 or something like that. I was imagining something that almost implemented a ReWire connection via some user freindly, less fuss vst style wrapper of sorts.

Have you heard rumors of any such update to ReWire?

[headquest]

I don't think they would necessarily wiat for Ableton to go 64-bit, nor do I think (from time spent on the Props User Forum) that this is any longer the most common combination anyway.
I lot of the Props own tutorial videos show Reason rewired into Pro Tools or Logic, and many of their professional big-name users have the Logic/Reason combination.
So if the Props want to have a 64-bit Rewire - and I'm sure they do - then I reckon they are probably working on it now.

[Budbud]

So if the Props want to have a 64-bit Rewire - and I'm sure they do - then I reckon they are probably working on it now.

Unless something has changed recently, Reason itself isn't yet 64-bit. Do you think they would update Rewire to being so before Reason/Record? On the forums, this has been a big issue with a lot of users, l...ong screaming for an upgrade from the 32 bit code.


However, it's once again one of those "this is where the industry is going" trends that the Props seem to be sticking their nose up to and arrogantly dismissing.


I've NEVER seen a company that worked so hard to project a message of "We don't care if we sell one or one million. This is all just a big vanity project for us. This is what we're making. Take it or leave it and f**k off with your silly request to keep up with the market."


I wish some giant company with a more typical corporate outlook would buy them out. A company with an actual concern about the bottom line would not smugly ignore TONS more sales just to make some stupid point, and the entire Prop line would be updated to be as accessible to the largest number of people as possible. Within a year, it would be or have vst, 64-bit and Midi Out.

[headquest]

I'm guessing it would also be a lot more buggy though... so be careful what you wish for

I would expect Record 2.0 to be 64-bit, with a free Reason 5.1 update also 64 bit, and a 64-bit rewire. Within the next year to 18 months. But only time will tell...

... I made the mistake before of thinking they might be on the way out, yesterday's news. But look where we are now - the bugginess of Ableton, Sonar X1, Logic, etc seems to annoy users increasingly, while Record/Reason continues to thrive and even attract new users. The stability of the platform may mean that the Props take longer over development, and need to stick to an ethos of tight internal integration, but the results become ever more appealing at a time when the more agressively developed corporate-led stuff is becoming ever more problematic to use.

[Budbud]

I'm guessing it would also be a lot more buggy though... so be careful what you wish for

I would expect Record 2.0 to be 64-bit, with a free Reason 5.1 update also 64 bit, and a 64-bit rewire. Within the next year to 18 months. But only time will tell...

... I made the mistake before of thinking they might be on the way out, yesterday's news. But look where we are now - the bugginess of Ableton, Sonar X1, Logic, etc seems to annoy users increasingly, while Record/Reason continues to thrive and even attract new users. The stability of the platform may mean that the Props take longer over development, and need to stick to an ethos of tight internal integration, but the results become ever more appealing at a time when the more agressively developed corporate-led stuff is becoming ever more problematic to use.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think the stability argument is kind of BS. Yes. It's rather stable if you use Props stuff by itself. If you do everything in Reason/Record, it's stable. However...I can't tell you how many times implementing ReWire has crashed my host DAW. I'm talking about every host I've ever used it in, on both p.c. and Mac.

I also feel all of this "other DAW's are so...unstable" stuff is a bunch of WAY overblown nonsense!... Studio One and every other DAW I've ever used, with countless plugins mind you, have always been pretty rock solid. I've had the odd issue here or there with a freeware plugin crashing something, but that's about it.

I'd rather have more options and capability at the risk of an occasional crash than willingly embrace giant limitations ALL THE TIME in the name of safety/stability. When people try to spin Reasons deficiencies into calculated positives it's kind of like saying...

"our cars have no paint, but that's a GOOD thing because now you don't have to worry about your paint job being scratched"

or

"It's better to not have a head....cuz then you don't have to worry about ever getting a headache!..."

or

"it's better not to have any legs...cuz then you'll never have to know the pain of a charlie horse"

or

"it's so...much better to not have any teeth, cuz then you'll never have to be bothered with brushing them or know the pain of a toothache!"


This line of thinking makes Propellerhead seem like a bunch of stability neurotics. Sacrifice all in the name of stability/safety. I don't think THAT should be the number one goal of creative software.


I really think that there is some other reason why the Props won't implement vst. The whole "stability" thing sounds like spin to me.

[hseiken]

I'm guessing it would also be a lot more buggy though... so be careful what you wish for

I would expect Record 2.0 to be 64-bit, with a free Reason 5.1 update also 64 bit, and a 64-bit rewire. Within the next year to 18 months. But only time will tell...

... I made the mistake before of thinking they might be on the way out, yesterday's news. But look where we are now - the bugginess of Ableton, Sonar X1, Logic, etc seems to annoy users increasingly, while Record/Reason continues to thrive and even attract new users. The stability of the platform may mean that the Props take longer over development, and need to stick to an ethos of tight internal integration, but the results become ever more appealing at a time when the more agressively developed corporate-led stuff is becoming ever more problematic to use.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think the stability argument is kind of BS. Yes. It's rather stable if you use Props stuff by itself. If you do everything in Reason/Record, it's stable. However...I can't tell you how many times implementing ReWire has crashed my host DAW. I'm talking about every host I've ever used it in, on both p.c. and Mac.

I also feel all of this "other DAW's are so...unstable" stuff is a bunch of WAY overblown nonsense!... Studio One and every other DAW I've ever used, with countless plugins mind you, have always been pretty rock solid. I've had the odd issue here or there with a freeware plugin crashing something, but that's about it.

I'd rather have more options and capability at the risk of an occasional crash than willingly embrace giant limitations ALL THE TIME in the name of safety/stability. When people try to spin Reasons deficiencies into calculated positives it's kind of like saying...

"our cars have no paint, but that's a GOOD thing because now you don't have to worry about your paint job being scratched"

or

"It's better to not have a head....cuz then you don't have to worry about ever getting a headache!..."

or

"it's better not to have any legs...cuz then you'll never have to know the pain of a charlie horse"

or

"it's so...much better to not have any teeth, cuz then you'll never have to be bothered with brushing them or know the pain of a toothache!"


This line of thinking makes Propellerhead seem like a bunch of stability neurotics. Sacrifice all in the name of stability/safety. I don't think THAT should be the number one goal of creative software.


I really think that there is some other reason why the Props won't implement vst. The whole "stability" thing sounds like spin to me.

I don't think that not having VSTs in Reason is entirely based on stability. Just think about what you would see if you hit TAB with a VST in your rack...and while we're talking about racks, how the hell would something like Toxic III fit in that thing?

It's simply an interface issue and Reason was never designed to accomodate the VST standard so trying to shoehorn it in would just be an exercise in annoyance to the end user because it would feel so detached from the rest of the program. I personally like closed systems so I may be biased here. I used to be a VST whore then I realized it was my sound design skills that needed work, not my VST colleciton...I do agree, though, that Reason isn't a proper DAW. It's really more of an electronic music sandbox and it does that very well and I see no reason to ruin that. ReWire options are more suited for the expansion...however, I dislike Rewire with a passion. I'd rather Reason (and every other DAW for that matter) suppor OSC. But then there's no money to be made on it, so there's a lot of arrogance there from the software companies on that issue as well...I also like Jack for Linux. That's what rewire *should* have been...

[Muziksculp]

Hopefully :

'Rewire 3' Will be released in the near future, and will be compatible with 64-bit hosting DAWs i.e. Cubase 6, Logic Pro 9, Sonar X1, Studio One Pro, ...etc.

And possibly some other improvements to the Rewire protocol to make it easier to integrate/setup, and very stable.

Reason 5 and Record 1.5 will most likely be upgraded by Prop.head to be 64-bit applications, it's just a matter of time, but... the sooner this happens, the better.

64-bit is the future. (32-bit) is the past. Let's move forward

[k3ith]

First: The only possible way to use refills (the included wav/aiff/rex-files, that is) is to use the refill unpacker.

Which is not officially supported by Propellerheads.

Who cares?

[sensorium]

I think the OP is right in that the Props can have an odd view of the world. Not adding audio tracks to Reason is something I don't understand, especially since Record has them. I suppose adding them to Reason would stop people buying Record, but I really do not see the need to have Record as a separate product.

Anway, the VST issue...

I believe Reason's strengths are--

1. low CPU
2. backward compatibility for any project, no matter how old
3. never crashing
4. easy collaboration

Implementing VSTs may take away these strengths--

1. CPU use becomes roughly the same as other DAWs
2. backward compatibility becomes the same as other DAWs -- make sure you don't delete old plugins if you want to open old projects (fine for some people I'm sure)
3. number of crashes will increase; maybe a small amount for some, but still an increase
4. collaboration not as easy, since collaborators must have same set of plugins

I do think, however, that some kind of VST wrapper in Reason which could bounce VSTs might be an approach to solve this (like Directwave maybe; once you're happy with a preset/sound you could bounce it to an NN-XT multisampled patch).

Just an idea. I certainly share the same frustrations at not being able to access some of my VSTs through Reason, and not easily accessing refill content.

[Numanoid]

First: The only possible way to use refills (the included wav/aiff/rex-files, that is) is to use the refill unpacker. I don't know if any other vst-sampler is able to read nn-xt or nn19 patches.

A bit of an old subject, but does anybody know of an easier way to "unpack" refills?

Could Winrar or 7zip or any of the packaging programs do it?

No problem to use NN-XT files outside of Reason, Kontakt reads them. But I don't think Kontakt can read the refill format, the content must be unpacked first.

[Meffy]

There is no legal method of unpacking Refills. The idea is to protect content makers' work. Please don't ask for ways of defeating that protection.

Note that the latest versions of Reason do include 64-bit Rewire.

[AstralExistence]

There is no legal method of unpacking Refills. The idea is to protect content makers' work. Please don't ask for ways of defeating that protection.

Note that the latest versions of Reason do include 64-bit Rewire.

your telling me when i sold reason, i did NOT unpack all my refills. i just said '"this sucks that i have to abandon all my refill content" that was that
unpacking a refill is a violation of the props eula. its that simple. yes it sucks.