KVR thoughts on Groove in electronic music production?

[Functional]

Okay, I was writing a giant wall of text. I'll just skip most of it and focus on the important points I have;

I've been now a couple years into music in mostly software based configuration. The problem I have as of right now is groove and especially, the lack of it. I guess lately, after hearing a LOT of jazz and funk thanks to my job and actually liking it, I started paying more attention to psychoacoustic elements of songs in regards of drumlines.

After switching from FLS to Ableton, I recently discovered the function of that "groove engine" in Ableton. Yeah, it's sweet. The problem is, I don't want to use it unless there seriously is no other way that does not involve spending a lot of bucks. And a lot of bucks in my case isn't even that much, but I'm about as broke as you can get in my country for now.

So, the question is: What kind of alternatives and options I have when it comes to adding groove into my works? And specifically, the drums. The rest of the elements are on their way as I develop my keyboard skills to the point where quantization in pianoroll is a feature that's just in my way. But drums, how can I deal with them?

I don't like the concept of ripping others work (pre-made groove). If I have to, okay, maybe I'll try to mash different grooves together to add at least a little of artistic vision (which will most likely be still random and not truly artistic). I also have a Maschine controller which I think could fit in well for fingerdrumming, but I'm very uncertain of that way. I need to first do something about the sturdy pads which certainly do not fit for playing drums, but would it be worth it? How about getting a conga and record while you play it and then import the groove into Ableton, since it can?

And before someone makes a classical remark about mainstage EDM producers, I'm interested in more jazzy/housy (like minimal/tech for example, but not electro)/dub styles of music.

Here's a few examples of songs that seem to have a groove (often looping one though, but that's fine in my opinion in the scene);



(In this case, a lot of people find this song boring, but I love that track and can't help it if others don't)





Thanks in advance for replies

[Functional]

Sorry gals and guys, I failed to keep it short, by the way

[GeckoYamori]

I'm not even sure what you mean with groove since you never gave your own definition of it, and I have no idea what qualities I'm looking for in those examples.

My advice is to forfeit the quantization/grid features in the sequencer and start experimenting with drum placement right down to the miliseconds. Especially things like claps which arguably have multiple transient give you more alternatives on where to nudge them which can fundamentally alter the feel of the rhythm. Some samples come pre-baked with a bit of delay in them though so I usually have them auto-trimmed in my sampler to give me more control on where I want them.

[FriendlyStranger]

The way I often do drum parts is to first lay down some kicks and snares quantized to the grid. Then I'll play this loop and record in the other parts (hats, toms, cowbells, rusty spoons, etc.) on top of it. After I'm happy with the recorded material I go into the piano roll and nudge notes around, usually only very slightly (like, a millisecond this way or that). Also I will tweak note velocities as that has a huge effect on the 'feel' of a percussive line. Anyway, that's how I do it, dunno if that is any help

As far as the tracks you posted, I honestly think that the 'groove' in all of them comes from the bassline and not from the drums. And I'm pretty bad at basslines so can't help you there sorry The first three tracks are simple variations of kick-snare and 4-to-the-floor drum patterns. The Skream one has a little bit more going on but it's still a kick-snare pattern at its core. One thing that might help you is to look at the midi patterns of classic drum breaks like the Amen and Funky Brother - there's a reason people sampled these to death after all. Here's one site for that: http://www.simonv.com/tutorials/drum_patterns.php

[xalama qo]

if you have a mic, why don't you beatbox it, use your mouth, throat, suck in air between your teeth...and if you have no congas, slap your thighs.

Then align midi notes (drums) to the audio peaks from you groovy beatboxing!
Or even play keys to the beatbox first, add a few melodic/harmonic elements, upright bass needs to groove too, then get back to each drum element and play them in one at a time with a keyboard or pads.
One man jam.

[Functional]

I'm not even sure what you mean with groove since you never gave your own definition of it, and I have no idea what qualities I'm looking for in those examples.

My advice is to forfeit the quantization/grid features in the sequencer and start experimenting with drum placement right down to the miliseconds. Especially things like claps which arguably have multiple transient give you more alternatives on where to nudge them which can fundamentally alter the feel of the rhythm. Some samples come pre-baked with a bit of delay in them though so I usually have them auto-trimmed in my sampler to give me more control on where I want them.

Well, you got it right with what I mean.

Your approach is something I've tried to some extent and considered to a better extent. In the end, the problem seems to be the artificial nature of the practice itself. I'm 100% sure it can work out. I'm not 100% sure if you have a line that you write from the end to the beginning like that, is going to sound "cooler" (yes, that's cheesy way of putting it), than it would if you'd play that with real drums.

Then again, I do appreciate the input since I did mention specifically that I can't afford them right now. But I'm looking for alternative options which mean less playing around in sequencer. Though you're spot on about the quantization feature and I admit that I should use it less, even though I try to avoid it as much as possible.

The way I often do drum parts is to first lay down some kicks and snares quantized to the grid. Then I'll play this loop and record in the other parts (hats, toms, cowbells, rusty spoons, etc.) on top of it. After I'm happy with the recorded material I go into the piano roll and nudge notes around, usually only very slightly (like, a millisecond this way or that). Also I will tweak note velocities as that has a huge effect on the 'feel' of a percussive line. Anyway, that's how I do it, dunno if that is any help

I'll remain on the first post stance. With the exception that now I am kind of feeling after two of these that I should, perhaps, experiment more with the pianoroll if no other practical options appear.

As far as the tracks you posted, I honestly think that the 'groove' in all of them comes from the bassline and not from the drums. And I'm pretty bad at basslines so can't help you there sorry The first three tracks are simple variations of kick-snare and 4-to-the-floor drum patterns. The Skream one has a little bit more going on but it's still a kick-snare pattern at its core. One thing that might help you is to look at the midi patterns of classic drum breaks like the Amen and Funky Brother - there's a reason people sampled these to death after all. Here's one site for that: http://www.simonv.com/tutorials/drum_patterns.php

Yeah, you're probably right about the bassline thing. I also have large problems with basslines, to be honest. But interesting thing I noticed about them - if I happened to lay down a groove just for the heck of it on a bassline in Ableton with the groove engine, it suddenly felt like it's way better than I could imagine. And this convinced me that I need to start practicing jamming the bass more with my keyboard, which for now, I usually use just to play out chords quickly. Still have latency issues that I need to sort out, though.

And thanks a lot for that site, is definitively going to help me out with my issues.

if you have a mic, why don't you beatbox it, use your mouth, throat, suck in air between your teeth...and if you have no congas, slap your thighs.

Then align midi notes (drums) to the audio peaks from you groovy beatboxing!
Or even play keys to the beatbox first, add a few melodic/harmonic elements, upright bass needs to groove too, then get back to each drum element and play them in one at a time with a keyboard or pads.
One man jam.

I haven't really given a serious thought to this, but maybe I should. I need to get a mic anyway before any other hardware, because I need one for the sake of DJ gigs, which are more frequent lately.

I'm pretty sure that this is something that requires long practice, but nevertheless is going to be helpful as I do plan to get at least electronic drums later on. Thanks a bunch!