Chromatic Notation is Better

[MadBrain]

In my opinion, traditional notation has two much, much bigger problems than requiring 2 symbols for notes with accidentals: it's not key-relative, and all the notes sorta look the same.

The fact that it's not key-relative slows down music student's comprehension of music for years...
I've always thought that each of the 12 possible notes in a key should have a symbol with a different shape at least.

I don't agree with this point.
I would say that having "symbols" that are independent of key is actually a strength rather than a weakness and actually makes it easier (rather than harder) to learn.

Imagine how much harder it would be to have 12 different symbols to learn?! - In fact, you'd actually need more than that to be able to distinguish between Ab and G# (for example), and even that's not taking into account double sharps and double flats! And then you'd have to remember a new set of symbols every time the music changes key! And how would polytonal, atonal and modal music work?

Under the present system, an amateur musician can play music without necessarily having a detailed understanding of keys and such. Your idea would require a much greater knowledge before someone could even begin learning to play.

There's a good reason why the general basics of staff notation haven't changed much in over 4 centuries. A variety of alternatives have been proposed by different people over the years, but none have enjoyed the universal nature of staff notation.

From the point of view of a dude in the middle of a clarinet section, I guess you're totally right - he doesn't have to understand the music he's playing, just play it. He's probably playing some harmonized line that isn't even the melody anyways.

That being said, he's still going to have to learn at least the few most common scales for his instrument (probably common band keys such as Bb, transposed for his instrument). Key signatures work based on these scales, so musicians already have to learn them. Key independent notation builds up on this.

For Solfege it probably help, since key independent notation keeps people in the realm of stuff that they can actually hear (scale degrees) instead of things that they can't (absolute notes).

For a singer, key independent notation is probably better: unless he has absolute ear, he's probably already singing relative to the song's key.

For an electronic music composer, key independence would also be better, since it would help him focus on the really important information (the actual scale steps relative to the root). The same generally applies to composers except that they're composing for real instruments and they have to worry about their instrument ranges, so there would definitely be a problem there. On the other hand, it would solve all the problems of having a zillion different transposing instruments - 1 2 3 4 5 would stay the same on your Bb clarinet or trumpet, F horn, Eb sax, non transposing trombone...

Also if you have to transpose a song, that's much easier in key independent notation of course.

But yeah you have a point, it's definitively a give and take, and it's partially solved by the fact that songs are normally written in the more common easier keys instead of hard ones like F#.

[jancivil]

On the other hand, it would solve all the problems of having a zillion different transposing instruments - 1 2 3 4 5 would stay the same on your Bb clarinet or trumpet, F horn, Eb sax, non transposing trombone...

this doesn't make any sense to me. transposing instruments is just a notation problem. it isn't "solved by" anything, it's still an issue of an instrument that takes the written pitch differently because of the design of the horn, ie., the fingerings are determined by that. Key of C for the pianist is written as key of D for the Bb trumpet because of the players's basis, '[key of] Bb' is the player's 'C'. It's a convention that belongs with tonal music. This is addressed by what again?

[MadBrain]

On the other hand, it would solve all the problems of having a zillion different transposing instruments - 1 2 3 4 5 would stay the same on your Bb clarinet or trumpet, F horn, Eb sax, non transposing trombone...

this doesn't make any sense to me. transposing instruments is just a notation problem. it isn't "solved by" anything, it's still an issue of an instrument that takes the written pitch differently because of the design of the horn, ie., the fingerings are determined by that. Key of C for the pianist is written as key of D for the Bb trumpet because of the players's basis, '[key of] Bb' is the player's 'C'. It's a convention that belongs with tonal music. This is addressed by what again?

If you write in key independent notation, even though the note names are transposed, the song's key is transposed as well, so you end up with the same scale degrees across all instruments.

For instance, if your song is in Eb major, and your melody is 1 2 3 4 5 (Eb F G Ab Bb), you end up with the same degree numbers no matter your instrument's transposition:

Piano: Key=Eb, 1 2 3 4 5
Horn: Key=Bb, 1 2 3 4 5
Trumpet: Key=F, 1 2 3 4 5
Alto sax: Key=C, 1 2 3 4 5

[jancivil]

"key independent notation" - I have no idea what notation you mean, is the first problem. Do you mean the system proposed at the top of the thread?

All I get from this is, 'intervals are the same anyway'.

You appear to be advocating, but I don't know for what. What you have there, through itself, doesn't seem to address what I posed. Do you understand it? A pianist's C is a Bb instrumentalist's Bb. In this thing you seem to advocate, what is the note called and for whom? You said something solves this.

[MadBrain]

I'm proposing a 12 tone version of Rousseau notation.

The difference from Rousseau notation would be that instead of having minor keys start on 6 (in A minor, A B C D E is notated 6 7 1 2 3 in Rousseau notation), I'd start on 1 (giving 1 2 b3 4 5). To avoid having to add flats in front of all the b3, b6 and b7 notes in the song, I suggest using modified numerals. Since by then you have symbols for 10 chromatic degrees, it makes sense to add a symbol for b2 and #4/b5, so that you cover all 12 possible scale degrees.

[JumpingJackFlash]

I'm proposing a 12 tone version of Rousseau notation...

OK then, transcribe any piece of classical music in this way, post the results, and we'll see which is easier to read.

[jancivil]

in any case, this doesn't "solve" transposing instruments. it doesn't so much as address it. I'm not sure you understand the problem.

this seems to require a whole system of [re-]education.

whatever amuses you. ain't gon happing.

[MadBrain]

As far as I know, Rousseau notation is mostly used in China, for stuff like Erhu parts.


This dude has transcribed a bunch of Jazz standards in Rousseau notation:
http://normanschmidt.net/leadsheets.php
He uses slashed numbers for sharps, and reverse slashed numbers for flats. It's pretty readable, though I have to admit I'm not sure it's really much more readable than standard notation for someone with zero training.

Obviously, for someone with training on an instrument like a violin, traditional notation wins.

[Dewdman42]

There are one syllable names already. do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti

The state of music notation today is largely a matter of tradition. People who have spent the time learning to read traditional notation don't have any problem with it and they certainly aren't going to suddenly try to learn something new. It works very well. Is it perfect? perhaps not.

Davorak invented a better typewriter layout too but it never took over because people had already learned the old way and no way to get any critical mass with a new system.

In any case, I personally think that people need to realize there are advantages and disadvantages to any system. Here are some advantages I can think of with what we use now.

All the notes look the same is an advantage. Nobody should have to read the notes like written letters. Instead people can look at patterns on the staff, which are quickly converted into hand movements. When sight reading people don't look at every note to translate it. They see a position on the staff and their fingers move up or down by a certain distance on their instrument. when they see a triad, they just can see right away its a triad and after you've seen a C major triad on the bass cleff enough times, you just know what it is the minute you see it, you don't have to literally look at all three notes and then put your three fingers on the separately identified notes. Its actually a very good thing that all notes are round. Rythmn is defined by how the notehead is filled in or the stem line or dots nearby, or beams, etc. All of these things are easy to see without having to do a lot of thinking about it. They are visual patterns. Two beams means shorter duration then one beam, etc..

Regardless of what instrument you play, our standard notation works. A conductor can look at the same format as any of the players.

Like math, its a universal language with NO need for alphabet or anything that ever needs to be translated. I think we could send sheet music through space to an alien world along with an audio recording and they would easily be able to make the correlation after some study of how the music relates to the music.

related to accidentals...think about this...any music that is reasonably sophisticated is going to be changing keys all over the place and introducing notes outside of the key signature. So what is the alternative to what we have now? If you try to eliminate all accidentals and adopt something like a 12 row staff.... Basically if you look at your DAW's piano roll, then you can see that. Many people feel the DAW piano roll is actually superior to a traditional staff...but I can't sight read a piano roll...and probably never will be able to. I think there are advantages to seeing an E major chord as E G# B, for example, because when I see that pattern on the staff I don't even have to think about it, I see an E major chord immediately as three notes on three adjacent lines with the middle one sharped and starting on the bottom line of the treble clef... my fingers just go there automatically and the pattern kind of fits the shape my fingers make on the piano keyboard. if you have a 12 row visual system, its hard to tell exactly without looking back at the piano key legend to figure out what the notes or chords are. Those patterns become too similar to each other and hard to distinguish things quickly.

In any case, the simple truth is, the incredibly vast library of material is already in this format and huge numbers of well trained musicians already know this format. It is what it is. just learn it and quit crying about it.

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