Some bugs or frustrating probs in Cantabile

[godly]

Hi folks,
I've been tweaking Cantabile a while by now and bought the software, but now I'm having some decent problems with it, I hope I can get a workaround for it, otherwise I've spent my money for nothing useful (is there a money back garanty?)
I contacted Brad, but I'm trying my luck here also, to get some quicker response on it, as I have rehearsal monday and would like to try some.

I have these problems in Cantabile, and I know it's specific to the software since in the BloXpander demo I got it wokring ! (I was fond of BloX at first, but the interface lacks some Dummies like me help, so I kinda gave up here I'm asking the support there also, maybe I get some help to get it all going.

In Cantabile:

1. I can't get to some plugins midi controllers
For example RealLPC, I cannot assign any function to a controller. Nor via learn, nor manually.
I have it with other software also.

2. I can't get to the presets of many other software. For example Proteus VX, Kore Player, Some other third party,... I thought at first it was a Proteus prob, but seems that it's more than this.
Also it works in BloXpander, so again, I want this to be fixed, otherwise I cannot use these plugins and I need some good all use sounds such as pianos, strings, etc (GM plugin or so)

3. Loading Sampletanks presets isn't possible ! I've been looking all around the internet and user guides also for this... pfff

Could it be an administrator problem I found out after searching and tweaking? Nope. It didn't help either to run in admin.

4. Also I lost one evening of reinstalling and finding out what made canta crash every time. I've found out: when adding extra icons to the gui on top, on particular icons, such as subs-session save, ther is no image of the icon. Seems that Cantabile crashes on that after closing and restarting the program.

You see, it all get kinda frustrating here, I've lost many hours to find out all the probs and solutions, if there are any.

Any advice is more than welcome !!!

Thanks.

[TiUser]

...is there a money back garanty?

I remember there was a 30 days money back guarantee. Just no clue how to request it. Try to get your money back if you're absolute unhappy.


Concerning sound selection I agree that this can be a hassle. This is not only because of some shortcomings/inconveniences in Cantabile but with plugin integrated browsers as well.

There are two basic mechanisms to select sounds. First is old style via midi bank / progran changecommands. Second is a VST specific bank number recall. If a VST does not support any of these it can become tricky. Some can be worked around by saving/recalling a complete VST bank. Additionally there are all kinds of transition behaviour when switching a sound with VST, from perfect to disaster, where the latter is more often the case (especially with synth plugins) and needs again workarounds...

I guess there will be no host managing all these situations. Even HW makers latley discovered the demand for "seamless sound transitions" as a "new" feature...

[godly]

I asked Brad in the meanwhile and got his reply on the presets:

Hi,

I'm not intimately familiar with Proteus except to say that it sounds like the plugin doesn't support the VST interface for switching presets. If there's only one preset listed in Cantabile's preset selector then there's nothing for cantabile to switch between.

For plugins like this, you have two options depending on what you want to achieve:

1. If you just want to be able to load different presets manually through Cantabile's user-interface, consider using the Shared Preset Bank in the Program Organiser.

2. If you want to be able to switch presets with Cantabile's sub-session support try using Sub-session Behaviour -> Entire Bank - which will save/load the entire bank when switching sub-sessions. This option can be found by right clicking on the plugin name in Cantabile's main window -> Sub-sessino Behaviour -> Entire Bank.

Both of these options are described in detail in the user manual.

I hope this helps, if you have further questions, please email me: contact@toptensoftware.com

Regards
Brad Robinson
Topten Software

[godly]

I got this reply from EMU regarding the presets that are not accessible in Proteus VX

Thank you for contacting E-MU Support.

Most problem lies on 64-bit. It might have something to do with your application (Cantabile), Just make sure that you're installing or running Proteus VX under administrator account. I'm not very much familiar with Cantabile, could you provide more details or link to their website?

[pinkcanaru]

It has nothing to do with 64 bit support. That plugin is using a proprietary browser which does not supply patch info to the host. Many plugins operate this way. Brad's suggestion to load entire bank is the only way tog have the proteus recall your patches

[TiUser]

I also think the 64bit support argument is nonsense.

I've tried to use Proteus VX a long time ago with my Vista too and had even problems during installation of my original sound lib discs I got in a bundle even longer ago... Under Win XP things worked better, yet still not perfect either.

Running a plugin with administrator rights is also a mad suggestion.

The proprietary sound browsers are the main problem IMHO too. But even this might be a matter of taste - not supporting the standard VST patch banks mechanisms isn't. ...the old story, switching sounds during operation, it's not the DAW like approach and many VST's simple don't care - or support their own fancy browsers - because any of these VST's are "the only one you'll ever need in future"... don't you? LOL

[godly]

Happy to say Brad just refunded my purchase. I had to many other technical issues on my system with Cantabile, plus I could not take peace with the interface.
There were some bugs, but also some other issues I couldn't get solved with my computer.

I appreciate his correct handling, and still recommend Cantabile to new users, as it is a powerful piece of software !

[TiUser]

Happy to say Brad just refunded my purchase. <snip>
I appreciate his correct handling, and still recommend Cantabile to new users, as it is a powerful piece of software !

Indeed money back is more than correct handling IMHO - considering a month free trial period.

Finally I recommend to all new users to fully use the trial periods offered with any software. It may help avoiding going through money back - which isn't an option with most other software.

[godly]

Good advice !
I was so positive about Cantabile at first, that I decided to buy it straight away, but should have used the 30d trial indeed.

[pinkcanaru]

I'd love to know more about the bugs

[TiUser]

Maybe the old story... It's all not as simple as installing a music application on any pc and this beats a HW keyboard then... Finally some problems may not be resolvable on some pc hw... it's all not just a matter of software features.

[pinkcanaru]

Looking above I see one bug regarding a missing icon
The rest of it is down to proprietary browsers - which no DAW can handle -and some plugin midi learn issues which could be down to the plugins again given cantabile's ability to apply its own learn functions and the VST parameter control in the Mdi filter of each plugin
The only issues I have seen are where the plugin itself doesn't report functions to the host.

Putting host GUI preferences to one side, I've not seen any real bugs which, once identified, Brad doesn't deal with.

[godly]

I contacted Brad about the bugs. I had a list for him, where I encountered problems. They are sure not all bugs, but indeed, problems with my systems.

- The missing icons in the window bar (extra functions that you can add), caused problems when restarting the SW, it crashed, Brad resolved it directly in the experimental downloads you can find the new version of the software. Icons are still missing, but bug is gone

- I furthermore had problems with cracks in asio, or when the ram came in high peaks, all software got delayed, impossible to play. Sometimes also conflicts with my asio from M-Audio, I got permanent cracks sometimes, Pushing the All sounds of button resolves it. (that the button I added to the bar on top)

- Indeed, some controlling probs with RealLPC for example. I found out how to resolve this (there seemed to be a problem with the midi channel, so I used ch1 instead of ch2

- There were some minor botherings, but can't remember at this moment.

Do any of you guys have this problem that some host software resets the Midi assignments when restarting windows?
It seems that windows gives differnt IDs when starting up. So I had this problem in Live Professor and now in Intone also. I'm not sure, but I think I had it in Cantabile also. Only solution is to set 'ALL' as midi input.

[TiUser]

If you mix windows problems with such probably related to Cantabile it's even more difficult to discuss and fix issues.

You should learn that on windows there is no way to guaratee that enough cpu is scheduled at the right time to an audio applicaton. The only way is the "best guess" approach, meaning leaving enough headroom an hoping for things going fine...

Audio pops and cracks are a direct result of unpredictable resource (cpu) availabile right in time. The host software can not do much here and there is no practical way to guarantee no pops and cracks - except the best guess strategy and making sure leaving enough headroom.

Remove all disturbing and unneeded processes in windows. No internet, no firewalls, no virus scanners, no complicated music setups to start with. Less is more here... Disable also any power saving stuff.

Well, id based midi port assignment is simple and most programs do that - but it's true that windows may change these numbers - especially when you change usb ports of midi devices... Technically it get's difficult with plug&play drivers as windows does not assign useful names with devices. Dedicated midi drivers usually report device names and other information that can be used in software to identify midi devices more precise. But at the end of the day you really might be left with some devices that may present the midi port id change issue.

With a HW keyboard you hardly have any of these issues - that's wha I always say HW is still an alternative to consider. Lerning how to use music software as a live keyboard player, especially what is critical and how to work around is by far not as easy. You deal with a lot of technical components like soundcards/drivers, midi/drivers and devices, VST's and host software and any can be a source of problems.

I don't say a PC can't do it but you need to learn what works and how to do it - and what will probably not work...

This is why I always preach keep a cool head insead of getting euphoric and take some time to explore music technology with PC's.

A live players (i.e. low latency) music setup on a pc is the most delicate thing you can try doing. DAW stuff for recording is by far less critical because you can work with larger buffer sizes, direct monitoring of the recorded channel and some compenation in the DAW - which is all imüpossible within a live instrument setup.

[pinkcanaru]

Another great post from TiUser.

And on this:

Well, id based midi port assignment is simple and most programs do that - but it's true that windows may change these numbers - especially when you change usb ports of midi devices...

I think this only happens when you don't pay attention to the USB port you plugged into. It's one of those things you learn FAST on your live computer.
Brad actually has a solution for this on the way... but it's a problem you can avoid as long as you stick to the same interface on the same port. NOT a Cantabile bug.

Ultimately the issues you faced are all down to your computer not being optimised for low latency audio.