Fuzz Pedals, Distortions, Amp Sims?

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Sean, I saw in another thread that you're a man who appreciates a good stomp box, and who appreciates the sound of a good amp, however, you don't like amp sims and their ilk.

Question 1: do you just not like amp sims because you prefer the experience of using hardware, or do you think sims sound inferior?

Question 2: in looking for a next project, have you thought about pursuing stomp boxes and amp sims? Seems like something you know a thing or two about, have an ear for, and are passionate about.

[valhallasound]

Sean, I saw in another thread that you're a man who appreciates a good stomp box, and who appreciates the sound of a good amp, however, you don't like amp sims and their ilk.

Question 1: do you just not like amp sims because you prefer the experience of using hardware, or do you think sims sound inferior?

I don't think I've ever said that I don't like amp sims. I just don't use them. When I play guitar (which is fairly rare nowadays, as I am usually programming), I'll play through one of the tube amps I have. Nothing against amp simulations, but I'd rather play through a Fender amp that is otherwise gathering dust, versus learning a new software program.

Question 2: in looking for a next project, have you thought about pursuing stomp boxes and amp sims? Seems like something you know a thing or two about, have an ear for, and are passionate about.

I've done amp/fuzz sims in the past, but these were long enough ago in the past that I don't think they would be particularly impressive by today's standards. Not that I am really sure what today's standards are (see my answer to question #1).

The last 5 years have seen the rise of independent plugin companies. Most of the higher profile companies have between one and a few developers on board, and these folks tend to be fairly specialized. Urs Heckmann, for example, is obviously very skilled in virtual analog filters. Andy Simpler (Cytomic) is strong in compressors and virtual analog filters. Dave Gamble is great at compressors as well. There are a few indie reverb developers now (Michael Carnes, Martin Lind, Andrew Souter), and I think I hold my own there. The point being, the rise of smaller "indie" companies leads to people that can go deeper into their specialties, without having to cover all bases.

This specialization also makes moving into new areas that much harder. I've been working on reverb algorithms for 14 years now, so anyone who wants to move into this area needs to do a fair amount of work to catch up. In the same way, I don't think I would want to compete with Cytomic or U-he with regards to virtual analog filters, as they have put in some serious R&D time. I'm sure that a similar thing is happening with amp and fuzzbox models, where the people working on these have a huge head start.

One other aspect of amp modeling is the capital needed. Most of my reverbs were based on knowledge and my own imagination. VintageVerb required some vintage reverbs to learn from and (loosely) model, so I bought a few old Lexicons, and rented some higher end units. Vintage guitar amps are EXPENSIVE, so buying a few of these would start to add up. Plus, they are LOUD, which would entail having a decent physical location (recording studio, or at least a reasonably insulated room) to conduct measurements. Obviously this would be a fun excuse to buy a bunch of cool vintage gear, but I'm not sure if I have the aptitude for the models, and I don't want to go into debt on something I'm not sure I could pull off.

Fuzz boxes are a little different. The vintage ones can get pricey, but we're talking about hundreds of dollars instead of thousands. Plus, I can breadboard stomp boxes, without worrying about killing myself with high voltage. Still, most fuzz/distortion/overdrive pedals sound pretty weak on their own, without being fed into an amp. So selling fuzz/overdrive models would not be a good idea - you need the amp to make things sound "real." Even though I like the sound of a Big Muff being fed into a mixing board.

At some point, I'd love to do something distorty. It probably won't be a model of any existing things, though, for the above reasons. I'd rather spend the R&D time on something new and creative in this domain, versus competing with people who have been doing it longer, and with more math & EE chops than I have.

Sean Costello

[valhallasound]

One other reason why I will probably avoid creating amp models for now: Amps are LOUD. I really hurt my ears in the 1990s with all of the guitar playing I did (and all the shows, and listening to "Ventolin" over 100 times in a row for reasons I'd rather not get into here). In order to really capture the sound of the amp, I'd need to spend a lot of time in a room with amps going at full bore. That seems too loud, so by the transitive property, I am therefore too old.

Sean Costello

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

All valid points Sean. I wouldn't want to sit in a room with a jacked up amp either at this point in my life. Certainly not if it was me playing anyway.

That said, I do find something missing in amp sims. They never sound "loud" to me. I can get days of sustain out a Telecaster and my Fender Twin Amp (note: not a Twin Reverb) even with the volume below 4. That's entirely missing in every amp sim I've tried regardless of the input gain, pickups, etc. Maybe it's the fact that that my monitors aren't belting out 100 decibels or so, but it's just never there.

I can get amp sims to distort and get me cool tones, but I can't ever seem to make them sound "loud" in like a Ty Segall album sounds loud or like Hendrix's Red House sounds like it was loud. It sounds like "simulated volume" versus sheer balls to the wall chaos.

I don't know: it's hard for me to articulate the whys. Frankly, when I record an amp sim I usually like the "sound" of the results better than mic'ing up the real thing. I usually get a much better, balanced frequency response, and something that's much easier to mix. That said, the loss in sustain, dynamics, and "loud" is a trade off.

I'm hoping one day someone will better what's already out there. I don't think we have an Andy Simper or Urs Heckman (or Sean Costello) for amp sims just yet. I still thihk IK's got the best game in town (by far) and I still think there's a ton of room for improvement. The reason I asked you is that 1) your products thus far have been top notch, 2) you have good taste in distortion pedals and amps, and 3) probably around that far away from me musically in terms of guitar sounds.

All I want is one really good Fender Twin, or one really good AC-30 and I'd be happy. Something that when I turn the volume knob on the amp will sustain and sag and distort and push and pull like the real thing with a mic in front of it.

[valhallasound]

All valid points Sean. I wouldn't want to sit in a room with a jacked up amp either at this point in my life. Certainly not if it was me playing anyway.

Yeah, that prospect certain makes amp sims seem like a good idea!

That said, I do find something missing in amp sims. They never sound "loud" to me. I can get days of sustain out a Telecaster and my Fender Twin Amp (note: not a Twin Reverb) even with the volume below 4. That's entirely missing in every amp sim I've tried regardless of the input gain, pickups, etc. Maybe it's the fact that that my monitors aren't belting out 100 decibels or so, but it's just never there.

A few thoughts about this:

- When you play at 100 dB, this WILL be feeding back into your guitar. It may not produce audible feedback, but it will be affecting the sustain of your notes to some degree. Think about a PA that is slightly feeding back. It won't break into full-on howling, but you will hear some ringing around every word that is said into a microphone. This sort of subtle feedback will be affecting the sustain of your guitar.

- The impedance of your pickups is affected by the entire signal chain. Odds are good that most A/D interfaces present a very different impedance to your pickups than the input of a Fender amp.

- A sound at 100 dB or more that you hear in person will sound much different than a 100 dB sound that is recorded. The ears have their own nonlinearities, that kick in for very high volumes. The nonlinearities are frequency dependent (i.e. they are different for different frequencies), and they are in STEREO. I always think of this stereo nonlinearity as one of the coolest aspect of a really loud show. In any room, there will be different resonances between the left and right ears, but loud volumes cause these resonances to distort differently between your ears, and the distortion will change when you move your head or walk through the room. The air gets THICK.

I don't know: it's hard for me to articulate the whys. Frankly, when I record an amp sim I usually like the "sound" of the results better than mic'ing up the real thing. I usually get a much better, balanced frequency response, and something that's much easier to mix. That said, the loss in sustain, dynamics, and "loud" is a trade off.

It sounds like amp sims are more fun to record, but less fun to play. This makes sense.

I love feedback systems. All of my plugins so far play around with adding complexity to a feedback loop. Mix up a bunch of delays together, feed the results back into the inputs, and you get a reverb. Put some distortion and filtering in the feedback loop, and you get an analog delay. Put some wobble on the delay length, and it sounds more like a tape delay. Put a frequency shifter in there, and you get whatever the hell ValhallaFreqEcho is.

When you play guitar loud, through a tube amp, you are inserting yourself into a feedback loop. The sustain is affected by the amp. Where you are in the room affects your sustain and feedback. The resulting sound AFFECTS YOUR PLAYING. A loud amp turns a room into a 3D acoustic space, where moving to a different part of the room sounds way different, and can result in different feedback resonances. The thump of the sound through the speakers can be FELT. It's exciting as all get out, even if you are doing yourself some long term damage. How can a computer hope to replicate this?

I'm hoping one day someone will better what's already out there. I don't think we have an Andy Simper or Urs Heckman (or Sean Costello) for amp sims just yet. I still thihk IK's got the best game in town (by far) and I still think there's a ton of room for improvement. The reason I asked you is that 1) your products thus far have been top notch, 2) you have good taste in distortion pedals and amps, and 3) probably around that far away from me musically in terms of guitar sounds.

IK's marketing/social media has rubbed me the wrong way at times, but I'm pretty sure that they have some talented folks working there. The issue might have less to do with their models, versus WHAT they are modeling. It is one thing to crow about Slash's sound. What about Tony Iommi circa 1971? Or Mick Mars circa 1984? Motley Crue isn't really my thing, but one of my friends has shown me how beautifully thuggish the guitar sound on "Shout At The Devil" is. These sounds are a lot cruder & more brutal than the "standard" guitar tones, and may be harder to market. Or, it may be that such sounds would bring out the flaws of a given modeling scheme. I'm not really sure.

All I want is one really good Fender Twin, or one really good AC-30 and I'd be happy. Something that when I turn the volume knob on the amp will sustain and sag and distort and push and pull like the real thing with a mic in front of it.

Just get a 1968 Fender Super Reverb & a set of earplugs, and be done with it!

Sean Costello

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Regarding the volume contributing to a feedback loop, first I'd like to say "yes, absolutely." Then allow me to add a "but..."

I still think there's better sustain with real amps than with sims, regardless of the feedback loop. What's the reason I think that? All the times I've had to walk into an isolation booth to change a guitarists amp settings or move a mic while they were playing. The amps still just sustain and sound loud better than sims, even with the guitarist in a different room.

That said, your point about how our ear reacts to really loud volumes probably explains my perception of that. I'd love to test this out some day to see if it's real or not. I've only ever mic'd up amps or used amp sims, I've never had the luxury of time to really sit down and do some controlled experiments to find out if what I think I hear is really true or not.

In terms of impedence, I've used a variety of DI's (currently using a Radial J48) and have noticed an improvement with each upgrade in that area, but you're also right that it's still probably a long ways away from the front end of a classic amp. If someone knows the perfect front-end for DI guitar, please do share.

Just get a 1968 Fender Super Reverb & a set of earplugs, and be done with it!

I'm close to doing just that. I'm buying a house and the basement is broken up in such a way that there's a room that would make a great iso booth (the realtor described it as the wine cellar). It should be just far enough under ground and enclosed by just enough concrete that I should be able to get away with playing during daylight hours without the neighbors wanting to kill me. It'll be an experiment in long cable runs (going from the second floor down into and across the basement), but part of my plan is to figure that out and just go back to mic'ing more often.

That will also mean getting the problem with my amp and it's random channel switching (where it goes from the clean to dirty channel for an instant) resolved. You know what, maybe amp sims are better.

[valhallasound]

Just get a 1968 Fender Super Reverb & a set of earplugs, and be done with it!

I'm close to doing just that. I'm buying a house

Congratulations!

and the basement is broken up in such a way that there's a room that would make a great iso booth (the realtor described it as the wine cellar). It should be just far enough under ground and enclosed by just enough concrete that I should be able to get away with playing during daylight hours without the neighbors wanting to kill me. It'll be an experiment in long cable runs (going from the second floor down into and across the basement), but part of my plan is to figure that out and just go back to mic'ing more often.

That will also mean getting the problem with my amp and it's random channel switching (where it goes from the clean to dirty channel for an instant) resolved. You know what, maybe amp sims are better.

Another possibility is one of those isolation cabinets. I don't know how they sound, but it might be a good solution.

I used to think that a 5 watt head through a speaker cabinet would be quiet enough. I bought a Valve Junior and modded it. If I run it through my 4x12 (Avatar cab, G12H30 speakers), it shakes the house. Not a good solution.

Sean Costello

[toast]

Did somebody say Valhalla stomp box?

[valhallasound]

Did somebody say Valhalla stomp box?

Many people, over the years. I've said it, but more as a wish. Definitely not as a current, concrete plan.

Sean Costello

[Dean Aka Nekro]

@Sean and Funkyrobot's Evil Twin, If either or both of you are handy with a few components, a board and an iron then you could easily build yourself one of these http://www.tonebone.com/tb-dragster.htm
Pretty damned handy to have lying around for both DI use and measuring use (If you have the kit to measure what you want to match or can get one). Schematics rife on a google search also for example, Its possible to fit one in one of your guitars should you so wish they are small enough

Hope that helps even it doesn't mean a Valhalla dirt circuit

Yours faithfully, A fellow pedal and amp whore

Dean

Edit, If you are thinking of ISO Cabs, Power attenuation then give Hink/John a shout and have a look at Two-Notes Audio TORPEDO, Those things sound great and feel good also IMveryhumbleHO fwiw, There are plenty others but the Two-Notes dudes seem to have it nailed in one rack unit to my tastes/preferences/ears

[toast]

Did somebody say Valhalla stomp box?

Many people, over the years. I've said it, but more as a wish. Definitely not as a current, concrete plan.o

I was just being a smart-ass. I have a Kore pretty much for sanely using V3 in hardware land but often the computer is busy or off trying to make a living so it's hard to keep it always hooked up. I know I need to suck it up and buy a strymon or red panda or something but a boy can dream can't he?

It's a pity, every couple of years someone comes out with one of these open dsp things in a pedal or a module but nothing much has ever come out of it.

[valhallasound]

Did somebody say Valhalla stomp box?

Many people, over the years. I've said it, but more as a wish. Definitely not as a current, concrete plan.o

I was just being a smart-ass. I have a Kore pretty much for sanely using V3 in hardware land but often the computer is busy or off trying to make a living so it's hard to keep it always hooked up. I know I need to suck it up and buy a strymon or red panda or something but a boy can dream can't he?

It's a pity, every couple of years someone comes out with one of these open dsp things in a pedal or a module but nothing much has ever come out of it.

Well, the VeeThree algorithms would largely work on a Spin Semiconductor FV-1. I prototyped the Sanctuary algorithm on the TipTop Audio Z-DSP, which uses the FV-1. There are some major limitations on that chip with regards to modulation, and certain architectures wouldn't work at all (i.e. pretty much any ValhallaRoom algorithm), but the older Lexicon type algorithms work alright. This would easily fit in a "hardwired" pedal.

I'm hoping to do some research on the state of the ARM in 2013. ARM processors theoretically have a lot of bang for the buck. THEORETICALLY. Until the code is up and running on the chip, this is all theory. Some recent research suggests that the ARMs aren't as fast as the clock speed would indicate, when it comes to DSP code. Still, things might be fast and cheap enough to get some decent pedals with ARMs in there.

Sean Costello