Absolute pitch? Scientists say: "No such thing!"

[BertKoor]

From http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/20 ... 0.abstract

Most people cannot name the musical note that corresponds to a particular pitch without being provided a reference note, but those people with absolute pitch (AP) can do this accurately. Early experience during a developmental period is often thought to convey identity and stability of the note categories in people with AP, but the plasticity of these categories has not been investigated.

Here we provide the first evidence that the note categories of adults with AP can change with listening experience. Participants with AP showed shifts in perception in direct accord with prior exposure to music detuned by a fraction of a semitone. This suggests that the apparent stability of AP categories is conferred not by early experience but rather by the cultural norms adopted for tuning music.

[robogone]

Makes sense, and I've always wondered if that's what 'perfect pitch' actually is.

[JoeCat]

I read an article once that stated most people can come close to perfect pitch by taking a song they know really well (or even making one up) in a known key, and singing it in their head. It turns out that for music deep in our memory, we almost always come close to the singing in the key we remember.

Damned if it doesn't work pretty well most of the time. I use "Come Sail Away" to get near C. I can usually tune a guitar within a semitone if I concentrate.

Not sure what the use of that is (and it works very poorly when you've been listening to music, etc.), but it's interesting nonetheless.

[rp314]

The perfect pitch talent to me has always seemed a bit of a freak show thing. Folks tend to like that sort of stuff.

Some musicians have a very unusual talent for grasping the way music works. And in rare occasions they do so at such a young age that it's difficult to explain why that is. That they might possess something like "perfect pitch" could be just another way to try to explain what looks like some magical innate ability.

[Hink]

I dont know about this, there is a lot of info on Asian dialects which are tonal based. Now the difference here might just be the fact that absolute pitch means being able to names the notes and what happens with tonal based dialects is really "absolute recognition". The former is a learned behavior based on an attribute not all have, but those whose are raised with tonal dialects have natural pitch recognition but not by the note names.

I believe that Joecat's post is a good example of this, it is a learned behavior that some get accurate recall. Recalling is not perfect or absolute pitch as I see it, I can indeed restring a guitar and when I tune up my "root" string for lack of a better word I'm well within a semi-tone...but that is not absolute pitch, it's the result of tuning guitars for over 4 decades. I start with the same string and typically that string is either tuned to an "A" or a "G" so while I may not nail it I'm close enough no matter what I am tuning to zero in with a tuner.

I think absolute pitch is real, I think the amount of people people who state they have absolute pitch is way overstated and far less that barg about perfect pitch actually have it...I know I dont have perfect pitch but I know that when it comes to tuning my ears are well broken in...not saying their better than anyone else's ears, just use to it by now...a "learned" behavior.

If given two notes I'm fairly good at identifying the interval, but again that's not perfect pitch it's just recognition and a learned behavior. But still those with dialects who rely on pitch are very accurate, some are able to name the notes as they are played because they have musical training...in their case it would seem to (YMMV) that they have a natural ability (brought on by generations of using the same dialect) of accurate pitch recognition or the slightest pitch change. Combined with musical training being able to identify the note name seems logical.

The problem is pitch recognition and absolute pitch imo are two very different things, furthermore I think that "perfect pitch" is just another way for egotists to brag...I know for me I cannot name notes without a reference note, but if one string on my guitar is even just slightly out I hear it...but what I hear is oscillation between two or more notes, that's what my ear picks up on and that's not perfect pitch...just a learned behavior based on "feel"



edit: I just read something about perfect pitch in which they inserted the term "perfect relativity"

[Tricky-Loops]

I don't believe that "perfect pitch" is an innate donation. I'm sure that those people who claim to own it were exposed to music already as an infant. Don't forget that even in the belly a fetus can be exposed to music and develop an affection for it...

So I think that "perfect pitch" is a learned behavior (and no, *I* don't have it).

[Hink]

I don't believe that "perfect pitch" is an innate donation. I'm sure that those people who claim to own it were exposed to music already as an infant. Don't forget that even in the belly a fetus can be exposed to music and develop an affection for it...

So I think that "perfect pitch" is a learned behavior (and no, *I* don't have it).

but if you believe humans have instincts than those who's ancestors have spoken dialects based on pitch for centuries is it not possible that perfect pitch for them is an instinct or as you put it "innate donation"...they were born with it.

I actually did a sociology term paper* on "human nature" and instinct arguing that humans do not possess instincts and human nature is a blanketed term.

an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species

My contention (remember this was a college assignment, so I took this side...it does not mean that it's my firm belief, just my argument) was that man has two types of behaviors, learned behaviors and reflex behaviors (a quick example of a reflex is breathing, breathing is not an instinct...it's a reflex)

One of the problems with the def of instinct is the "biological species"...is mankind one biological species or are different races different species (which starts treading on very thin ice).

So if you believe we do in fact have instincts it would seem perfect recognition could be an instinct but once you add man made labels to tones it would add an element of learning.

*while this doesn't make my point right by any means because it's all subjective, I did nail the term paper and the professor did like my argument...but then the first day of class he spent a 1/2 hour on my name and jokes about it

[Tricky-Loops]

but if you believe humans have instincts than those who's ancestors have spoken dialects based on pitch for centuries is it not possible that perfect pitch for them is an instinct or as you put it "innate donation"...they were born with it.

If it were innate, then every new born child would speak in this dialect because of its instinct - but it doesn't...

Speaking & singing & making music are acquired skills (as is swimming etc.) - you have to learn it for years, otherwise you wouldn't speak any word, no matter what mother tongue. But of course there is an innate preference for certain frequencies & harmonies.

"Perfect Pitch" may be both - an innate instinct (or preference) teamed up with musical exposure since "(baby) belly age"...

[robogone]

but if you believe humans have instincts than those who's ancestors have spoken dialects based on pitch for centuries is it not possible that perfect pitch for them is an instinct or as you put it "innate donation"...they were born with it.

If it were innate, then every new born child would speak in this dialect because of its instinct - but it doesn't...

Speaking & singing & making music are acquired skills (as is swimming etc.) - you have to learn it for years, otherwise you wouldn't speak any word, no matter what mother tongue. But of course there is an innate preference for certain frequencies & harmonies.

You should probably do some research there, as I don't believe that's the case that neuroscience would put forward. There are very good reasons to believe that much of what we supposedly 'learn' in the way of language is hard wired into us - there are neuron structures that exist to handle language much earlier than any of us ever speak it.

Dialect is probably learned, but language family is more likely to be built in. We are predisposed from birth to be able to learn languages that involve certain inflections. Regional dialects is something different.

Read into it - it's a huge, complex subject, but neuroscience is really starting to understand a lot of what goes on in our children's brains during early development.

[Tricky-Loops]

but if you believe humans have instincts than those who's ancestors have spoken dialects based on pitch for centuries is it not possible that perfect pitch for them is an instinct or as you put it "innate donation"...they were born with it.

If it were innate, then every new born child would speak in this dialect because of its instinct - but it doesn't...

Speaking & singing & making music are acquired skills (as is swimming etc.) - you have to learn it for years, otherwise you wouldn't speak any word, no matter what mother tongue. But of course there is an innate preference for certain frequencies & harmonies.

You should probably do some research there, as I don't believe that's the case that neuroscience would put forward. There are very good reasons to believe that much of what we supposedly 'learn' in the way of language is hard wired into us - there are neuron structures that exist to handle language much earlier than any of us ever speak it.

Dialect is probably learned, but language family is more likely to be built in. We are predisposed from birth to be able to learn languages that involve certain inflections. Regional dialects is something different.

Read into it - it's a huge, complex subject, but neuroscience is really starting to understand a lot of what goes on in our children's brains during early development.

The ability to learn a language generally is innate. But it doesn't matter where you came from. For example Guilherme Kalfelz has German roots. But that doesn't mean that he has a preference for German. He grew up in Brazil, and he only speaks Portuguese. So there aren't any hardwired neurons for a certain language.

[ccDuckett]

Some random (though relevant) thoughts..

The comparison is often made that "perfect pitch" people are born wired
to perceive audio frequencies like most people perceive different colors;
while this seems to be perfectly neurologically possible, there is of course
the difference between knowing red from green, and knowing at a glance
whether one is looking at crimson or scarlet.. and though not an evolutionary
biologist, I would guess that accurate color perception has been a greater
selection pressure factor than pitch perception.

I would guess most here (and most musicians in general) have good relative
pitch perception; one phenomenon I have noticed in myself is-
when humming a melody in the absence of an obvious musical reference
(such as an song, instrument, tuning fork etc.)
I will automatically and unconsciously "tune" to whatever background noise
is present- be it a fan, the hum of machinery, etc.

On the flip side, I also enjoy random musical/environmental coincidences
like playing my (properly tuned) guitar and realizing
"Hey,the drip from the tap is in G"

[SODDI]

"Perfect Pitch" may be both - an innate instinct (or preference) teamed up with musical exposure since "(baby) belly age"...

There may be two separate phenomena here.

There are individuals, most of whom have started music training at a very early age, who have the ability to determine pitch perfectly, usually by interval - but for the most part only in familiar instruments or voices. They can have a more difficult time determining pitch when the voices are stripped of all other information.

A very very small sub-group of people have absolute perfect pitch without childhood training. They include prodigies like "Blind Tom" Wiggins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Tom and other autistic savants. This may be due in part to their prodigious memories.

[robogone]

there aren't any hardwired neurons for a certain language.

That's the point I was making - there are. I have been reading books on child development over the past few years and that's one of the things that surprised me. It's not a major difference, but language family for the race of the child does have an impact.

One example of a European learning a different European language is not a good example. In what I have read the suggestion was that major differences in language structure are hardwired in language learning brain structures.

[wrench45us]

no there's no pre-wiring for a partticular languahe

the understanding is there's considerable pre-wiring for language acquisition. One hypothesis I remember is this idea accounts for how rapidly babies/toddlers acquire language -- otherwise there's no accouinting for how quickly they manage to make associations between words and things and understand grammar and most remarkably of all, put all this together to form new sentences

studies I recall indicated that babies vocalized many different sounds 'native' to various languages across the world, but as they grew in acquiring language skills they tended to use and reinforce the language sounds used in their local language and drop the sounds that weren't heard around them.

The prewiring notion is also supported by the fact that babies taught sign language before they can speak take to it readily and can establish communication for what they want and what's their distress months before they can vocalize these same messages

I'm rather fascinated by this whole process as it's one of what we like to think is a unique aspect to being human
and the whole how we learn anything is pretty interesting -- including learning an instrument\music , a particular song -- mental aspects and muscle memory. but I digress

[robogone]

no there's no pre-wiring for a partticular languahe

Or spelling in your case...

I'm not suggesting that someone from Asia can't learn a language from Europe, but brains are more prepared for the language family where their racial roots lie than for somewhere far flung. There's no reason why that brain can't learn from a different language family, it's just that there's more going on to rewire the neurones as development takes place.