FREE: Alexis D-Four ... 90s drum sounds

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
Post Reply New Topic
RELATED
PRODUCTS

Post

Acid Mitch wrote:
Dewdman42 wrote: it could easily be argued that an analog instrument should not be sampled either.
I can't imagine how you could possibly argue that. Give it your best shot.

Not hard at all, actually. But it is going into endless argument territory because it necessitates either acknowledging, or refusing to acknowledge, the significance of the intention behind making sample libraries. One must also acknowledge, or, again, refuse to acknowledge, the extent to which one is "effectively recreating" any instrument by creating a sample library version of it.

Let's cut out the b.s. though and stop arguing about the law when it comes to the question of sampling any kind of instrument or, for that matter, any manufactured thing that makes sound.

We have no Star Trek replicator device so it's obviously inherently impossible to materially copy an instrument by any simple means. No one is literally recreating a Fazioli piano that costs as much as a house and distributing the actual piano on DVD.

So, therefore, it is not now and it may never be illegal to make a Fazioli sample library, as long as "Wondrous Italian (wink wink) Uber Piano" is used to identify it as opposed to the original name.

But that's really not the basis of the ethical question and the resultant long, hideous, often insulting argument threads that come out of that ethical question.

The basis of the ethical question is simply this: why is it perfectly fine to use the sound of the Faziloli in order to intentionally make a virtual Fazioli without the Fazioli company issuing any permission or getting any compensation if the virtual version of their original creation is distributed for profit by someone else?

Yes, obviously the virtual Fazioli is a set of recordings engineered into software, and obviously that's not wood, metal strings, varnish, etc.

But that's not the point of the ethical question. The point of the ethical question is that the absolute intention of creating the virtual Fazioli is to get as much of the Fazioli as possible into the virtual recreation, and that goes for live, on stage applications as well as studio applications. If that isn't the intention of the library developer, then either they are failing at their job or they are trying to create some kind of sound effects library.

So the ethical question persists: if the library developer is trying to use the Fazioli to get as close as possible to recreating the Fazioli as an instrument, NOT as a performance recording of a music piece, then why is it just perfectly ok for them to do that with impunity if Fazioli doesn't want them to?

Now, I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm not taking potshots at any developers or users of samples, since I use many myself and, as a home studio musician on a very tight budget, I would be very hard pressed to do without them.

If there is "guilt" inherently worked into the fabric of the whole culture of sample based music making, then I am as guilty as anyone else.

I'm just convinced this is not a simple issue that can be dismissed strictly because it isn't illegal, or talked away easily by drawing analogies to the free use of instruments for music recordings, etc. Making virtual instruments isn't the same as making music recordings. It's an entirely different process with an entirely different intention, goal, and ultimate effect, and it can't be lumped into the same category, regardless of whether it is or isn't treated differently under any existing laws.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."

---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry

Post

A.M. Gold wrote:The basis of the ethical question is simply this: why is it perfectly fine to use the sound of the Faziloli in order to intentionally make a virtual Fazioli without the Fazioli company issuing any permission or getting any compensation if the virtual version of their original creation is distributed for profit by someone else?
And how would I profit from recreating the D4, apart from paying the server/hosting bills, paying for Reaper/Maize/Kontakt to create the samples/instruments, paying for the expensive recording gear, ... ? Oh, right, people shake my virtual hand for it, if even so much at all.
Reaper user? Get my free JSFX plug-ins, also available via ReaPack extension.

Post

A.M. Gold wrote:...

We have no Star Trek replicator device .....
Oh we have at least in the digital domain. That makes the things so complicated.

In a world where the price of something is usually coupled to the availability, what is worth something that could be easaly available for all ?

I know thats provocative. But in the end, thats the question.

:roll:

Post

Dewdman42 wrote:it seems to me that if chokehold had not identified his box as anything remotely resembling a D4, by calling it something else and not uttering a word on any forum anywhere about the fact that its a D4, then most likely it would never have been a legal problem, even though very much an infringement by the law.
Yes. In fact, I'm sure that this happens.
Of course... then the nostalgic value of putting out a D4 clone would be gone and most likely people would just listen to it and go "eh....it sounds like old digital junk from the 80's who needs it".
Exactly, and therin lies the rub. People are nostaglic for particluar things, not just old things. In fact, what one needs to make such a venture successful is, in fact, the use of the trademarks.
Once the audio has gone through some processing, its no longer bit for bit. It doesn't have to be bit for bit in order to lose a copyright infringement case, but the original creator would have to prove somehow that yours is a re-sample of their original. In the case of musical material that is pretty easy. In the case of a single drum hit, it will have to be pretty darn distinct sounding to make a case and prove in court that it was resampled from them. Maybe it could be proven, maybe not, but its really not as clear cut as say a musical passage or something the evolves over time a certain way.
Yes, in fact, in this particular case, I would say that the similarity of the entire library to the content of the D4 would be stronger evidence than much of the bit for bit comparison of short drum hits.
It would be a very interesting case, if Aleisis even tried to pursue it, but I don't think it would be that easy for them to prove, aside from the fact that chokehold did not try to sell their stuff as his or hide it in any way, he just tried to honor the original D4 and make a plugin version to give away for free. since he openly admitted it and even asked for their blessing which they denied, there is no chance whatever that chokehold can get away with anything now. In fact any attempt to do a website that produces final tracks with his samples, etc...now that the whole discussion has been on this site....could easily result in a successful copyright suit by Alesis. So just forget it.

The ironic thing is that more than likely Alesis is never ever going to do anything with those old samples. It would be nice if they would license chokehold's
He might have had better success if he was say, oh, I don't know, perhaps someone like Stephen from hollowsun, and approached Alesis with a partnership proposal that described how both would benefit financially from a licensing agreement? Alternatively, it would be nice if there were something like a mechanical license mechanism for samples like there is for songs. If I want to cover some pop song I can probably get the rights to do so for a minimal fee. I looked into this some years ago and IIRC, it was something on the order of $70 per song per 1000 cds produced. The license to distribute online was different. This type of arrangement could be profitable for copyright owners as well as licensees.

Copyright laws exist to protect creators, but its really unfortunate when the laws basically move certain material into obscurity due to the protections blocking their access.
To add to this, Copyright as a concept exists to benefit the public good. The laws granted limited exclusive right to distribute works in return for the benefit that such works provide to society.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution, known as the Copyright Clause, empowers the United States Congress:

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
So in reality, the law doesn't exist to "protect creators", rather, it is to "encourage creators" to benefit the public good by creating works. Without copyright, there would be no protection and people wouldn't want to waste their effort. So, the notion that often gets repeated here that it's fair that owners get the say for as long as they live seems to forget that the entire idea is to balance the value to creators with the value to the public.

The wikipedia page on fair use states that, for example, the fair use exemptions are estimated to create value of some 4.5 billion dollars annually to the U.S. economy. Balance in these rights is essential. Proper balance means that more people can effectively use the works of others in "fair" ways to contribute to the economy. That's the whole point of copyright, it isn't to assert congruence with the widely held belief that "my creations are my own." Yes, your creations are your own completely as long as you never want to distribute them.

Post

ghettosynth wrote:He might have had better success if he was say, oh, I don't know, perhaps someone like Stephen from hollowsun, and approached Alesis
I dunno - I don't suppose I'd have any more luck than Mr Hold despite my previous association with the company. Companies are very protective of their IP these day. Right or wrong but I can't say I blame them.


Stephen

Post

hollowsun wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:He might have had better success if he was say, oh, I don't know, perhaps someone like Stephen from hollowsun, and approached Alesis
I dunno - I don't suppose I'd have any more luck than Mr Hold despite my previous association with the company. Companies are very protective of their IP these day. Right or wrong but I can't say I blame them.


Stephen
Of course, maybe you're not a big enough fish :) but you get my point. It's much better to approach them with a profitable partnership than to play the "I won't be making any money distributing your ip" card.

Post

chokehold wrote:
A.M. Gold wrote:The basis of the ethical question is simply this: why is it perfectly fine to use the sound of the Faziloli in order to intentionally make a virtual Fazioli without the Fazioli company issuing any permission or getting any compensation if the virtual version of their original creation is distributed for profit by someone else?
And how would I profit from recreating the D4, apart from paying the server/hosting bills, paying for Reaper/Maize/Kontakt to create the samples/instruments, paying for the expensive recording gear, ... ? Oh, right, people shake my virtual hand for it, if even so much at all.
No, this wasn't directed at all at you or your sampling project. I was picking up on the overall debate that this thread spawned, which I think is healthy. If Alesis hadn't directly intervened, I most likely would have DL'ed and tried using what you created, so I'm not casting stones here, just making the challenge because this question is so often overlooked in the sampling age. Personally, I hate grappling with it. The most "ethical" way out would be for instrument makers themselves to release their own virtual products, as Zildjian did, but that is very rare up to this point.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."

---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry

Post

tomtoo wrote:
A.M. Gold wrote:...

We have no Star Trek replicator device .....
Well, not quite, and that's the reason why laws don't exist to stop sampling analog or acoustic instruments, since a digital recreation isn't an exact replication. But in the age when so many things are done strictly in the digital domain, the argument that a digital version of an acoustic instrument is "almost as good as" the original is far from being a senseless position.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."

---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry

Post

THE END...

Post

pc2000 wrote:THE END...
...maybe at page 20 after we've played through all eventualities and what Rob can do with his own recorded Alesis samples and what he cannot and what he might do if he could. :wink:

Post

This thread makes me want to take my d4 out of its rack and smash it with a hammer.

Post

pc2000 wrote:THE END...
Oh no, this conversation is just getting started. I've got volumes to write yet, but, I'm busy right this second trying to get some music done, heh!

Post

Ps natural dna was just ruled not patentable... and now I'm gonna sit down and listen to the IP demo button d4 sounds musical masterpiece..

Post

thisplace wrote:This thread makes me want to take my d4 out of its rack and smash it with a hammer.
This could be a solution to make a legal (hammer) sample library without using the Alesis EEPROM samples... :idea:

Post

A D4 loop library would be cool... 24bits 44Hz with loop points and slice markers... :wink: :hihi:

Post Reply

Return to “Samplers, Sampling & Sample Libraries”