What up guys?
I was looking for a way to expand what I already know in music theory and I wanted to get a reference for good source where I can learn more about modes. Basically what I want is to be able to incorporate modes within my music piece and have either minor or major key with a top melody from a mode or a bass from a mode. I want to know which modes can be played with minor and which ones with major keys, etc etc.
Let me know, Thanks!!!
Modes
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- KVRist
- 56 posts since 2 May, 2013 from Canada
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- KVRist
- 195 posts since 11 Dec, 2006
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Harmonic-Experi ... experience
This will keep you busy for a good long while. Includes a chapter on the "magic mode"..
This will keep you busy for a good long while. Includes a chapter on the "magic mode"..
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
this confounds terms. "Major" and "Minor" are things in themselves, as will be a particular 'Mode'.
You won't be in a mode and actually be in Major ('key') unless the mode is the Ionian Mode; the "natural" Minor is the same notes as that set which is called Aeolian Mode. Other than this correspondence, "what mode can you do in major (minor)" is a confusion of the terms. Five of the seven 'church modes' are not going to correspond with major or minor key. They use different notes than, there is a disagreement with the key. there is no point to fitting them to major or minor *key*.
of these other modes, you can see that two of them contain a major third, three contain a minor third vis a vis the first note. So, eg., 'Mixolydian' and 'Lydian' can be said to have a more 'major' affect than a 'minor' one, generally speaking.
'Major' and 'Minor' are most typically tied in with harmonic music, which a use of modes qua modes doesn't suit so well. That's more than I want to get into for all sorts of reasons.
You won't be in a mode and actually be in Major ('key') unless the mode is the Ionian Mode; the "natural" Minor is the same notes as that set which is called Aeolian Mode. Other than this correspondence, "what mode can you do in major (minor)" is a confusion of the terms. Five of the seven 'church modes' are not going to correspond with major or minor key. They use different notes than, there is a disagreement with the key. there is no point to fitting them to major or minor *key*.
of these other modes, you can see that two of them contain a major third, three contain a minor third vis a vis the first note. So, eg., 'Mixolydian' and 'Lydian' can be said to have a more 'major' affect than a 'minor' one, generally speaking.
'Major' and 'Minor' are most typically tied in with harmonic music, which a use of modes qua modes doesn't suit so well. That's more than I want to get into for all sorts of reasons.
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- KVRAF
- 11162 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
And here we go againDzole wrote:
Basically what I want is to be able to incorporate modes within my music piece and have either minor or major key with a top melody from a mode or a bass from a mode. I want to know which modes can be played with minor and which ones with major keys, etc etc.
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 56 posts since 2 May, 2013 from Canada
OK so I listened to this dude playing small guitar parts and he was like, the melody that I am about to play is in say a minor and the the bass is in so and so mode and plus other top melody in some other scale... It was long time ago and I cant find it to show u what I mean but that's what basically he was saying and that made me think that in this song:jancivil wrote:this confounds terms. "Major" and "Minor" are things in themselves, as will be a particular 'Mode'.
'Major' and 'Minor' are most typically tied in with harmonic music, which a use of modes qua modes doesn't suit so well. That's more than I want to get into for all sorts of reasons.
starting 1;45 when the violin comes in and plays different notes, I thought yeah that must be what the guy was saying...But since u disagree and there are some other people that disagree as well, I am neutral, until I learn otherwise.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I'm clarifying the meanings of words. this is useful to have. if you went for eg., 'the lydian mode' you will have exceeded 'major key'. the two things don't agree. you've gone outside. I'm not telling you don't do it, I'm saying that the meaning of the latter term doesn't apply to the former. Someone else may be more motivated to go into it more than I am atm.
I showed you where the things can be related in one basic way (major vs minor third), but they aren't the same things. 'Major key on C' has attributes that in terms of mode names differ from all but 'C Ionian'. It can't be both things at the same time. If you were to do the two things at the same time it's still two things. There are problems that come up if you put two modes against each other, so knowing what major and _ mode are is fundamental.
I showed you where the things can be related in one basic way (major vs minor third), but they aren't the same things. 'Major key on C' has attributes that in terms of mode names differ from all but 'C Ionian'. It can't be both things at the same time. If you were to do the two things at the same time it's still two things. There are problems that come up if you put two modes against each other, so knowing what major and _ mode are is fundamental.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
different than what? it's in a minor key, there is nothing remarkable in terms of a new 'mode' or anything.Dzole wrote:1;45 when the violin comes in and plays different notes.
well I have no idea what happened with 'dude', but at 1:45 in your video there is nothing resembling that. In that sort of music, the chances of things needing to be as complex as that sentence seem low compared to the chances of someone talking out of an insufficient understanding.Dzole wrote: I listened to this dude playing small guitar parts and he was like, the melody that I am about to play is in say a minor and the the bass is in so and so mode and plus other top melody in some other scale...
At this point I advise forgetting about what 'this dude' was on about, clear your head and obtain a real understanding of terms, proceed from that.
Some things are true and some are not true.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 56 posts since 2 May, 2013 from Canada
Well it plays different notes than the first melody so I thought he either uses mode or something but its probably a different notes that work with that chord. However, This dude that I was talking about has nothing to do with the track I posted, as I said I listened to him a while ago and I lost the link to his video to better tell u what I meant. Anyway thanks for the Advice! Cheersjancivil wrote:different than what? it's in a minor key, there is nothing remarkable in terms of a new 'mode' or anything.Dzole wrote:1;45 when the violin comes in and plays different notes.Dzole wrote:
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- KVRAF
- 16740 posts since 13 Oct, 2009
This guy gives a fairly simple practical discussion about using modes. It's based on guitar, but, that's probably where you want to start. Guitar players more often come at theory from a practical "how do I use it" point of view than keyboard players who often start their music training with piano lessons in their youth. Yes that's a generalization and of course there are exceptions.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
yes, that's a good thing to take away from this. My comment as to 'harmonic music' refers to this. It's 'minor [key]', there is not really anything to gain from talking about modes in relationship to this. In general terms, modes and a lot of chordal movement don't travel so well together anyway.Dzole wrote:its probably a different notes that work with that chord.jancivil wrote:different than what? it's in a minor key, there is nothing remarkable in terms of a new 'mode' or anything.Dzole wrote:1;45 when the violin comes in and plays different notes.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Per the modes tutorial video: I disagree with 'they're all based in _ major'. That's coincidental. It's the usual way of finding these modes out and it's obviously useful to provide the simple basis, but the modes have their own identity.
While 'A Dorian is the second mode of G Ionian' is a true statement, 'G Ionian is the seventh mode of A Dorian' will be equally true. This 'they're all based in _ major' produces a potential for confusion. A lot of people will tell you 'do A Dorian when you get to your A minor chord in G major'. That's needlessly dealing with two names for one thing. If it's 'in G major', 'Dorian Mode on A' is a useless name for 'G major scale'. It's not the G major scale starting on A per se.
The reason for using a mode is the character of the mode, in itself, as it relates in the first place to its 'tonic'. "A Dorian" is not meaningful where the tonic is G; especially as you have chords that wind up pulling to G, the dorian affect will be obscured if not lost. So in use, such as the progression Am D G has to be considered in a way as to give weight to the Am (such as rhythmically) if you want to 'be' in Dorian on A. Am D G by itself is a typical function to G.
While 'A Dorian is the second mode of G Ionian' is a true statement, 'G Ionian is the seventh mode of A Dorian' will be equally true. This 'they're all based in _ major' produces a potential for confusion. A lot of people will tell you 'do A Dorian when you get to your A minor chord in G major'. That's needlessly dealing with two names for one thing. If it's 'in G major', 'Dorian Mode on A' is a useless name for 'G major scale'. It's not the G major scale starting on A per se.
The reason for using a mode is the character of the mode, in itself, as it relates in the first place to its 'tonic'. "A Dorian" is not meaningful where the tonic is G; especially as you have chords that wind up pulling to G, the dorian affect will be obscured if not lost. So in use, such as the progression Am D G has to be considered in a way as to give weight to the Am (such as rhythmically) if you want to 'be' in Dorian on A. Am D G by itself is a typical function to G.
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- KVRAF
- 1985 posts since 14 Mar, 2006
Dzole,
i agree with others, the electronic music video you posted does not have different modes mixed at the same time. In fact I don't really know of any music that has intentionally attempted to do so. now, music can change modes over time, but mixing two different modes at the same time doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Maybe you have a better example of what you're asking about?
Modes are mainly an interesting way to match scale notes to chords. That way you can play other "in-between" notes besides those that are in the current chord. More than one modal scale can be sometimes be used against a particular chord, but not at the same time per say. Its just that you sometimes have the option to use this mode or that mode, depending on the kind of sound you are going after. As you add 7ths to the chord and other tension notes like 9th, 11th, 13ths, then you are further defining the exact tonality of the chord and narrowing it down to a single mode that is possible to use harmoniously over that chord.
Now some modes have a sadder feeling to them, lets call them kind of minor-ish, and some have more of a major feeling. This is mostly related to the 3rd scale degree. If the 3rd scale degree is flatted, then it will sound kind of like minor and if its not, then it will sound kind of like major. But technically speaking there is only one modal minor scale, which is the "Aeolian" mode. There are other non-modal "minor" scales, such as Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc. But in terms of the 7 modal scales, there is only one "minor" scale, Aeolian, and one major scale, "Ionian". However the other 5 modal scales can have a major or minor quality to them. Dorian and Phrygian both have the flatted 3rd scale degree and thus sound very similar to aeolian (ie, minor)...and will have that kind of sensibility to them, but with a twist. On the other hand, Lydian and Mixolydian sound more like Aeolian due to the natural 3rd scale degree. Locrian is the oddball of the group that maybe is lost in space, but that's another topic.
Now if you have a chord playing, if the chord has a flatted 3rd in it, then it would be appropriate to use a minor sounding scale for all the other in-between notes. A loosely defined chord (no 7th,9th, 11th, 13th) will have more options for which of the 3 minor-ish modal scales you want to use for the in-between notes.
Or if you are specifically trying to get more of a Dorian sound or a phyrigian sound, then you would stick to that mode and use that to determine what the chord can be exactly.
You can also base an entire piece of music around a certain mode, so that it moves through chord progressions in a way that emphasizes the tonic note in a way to emphasize that particular modal scale as the basis of the entire piece of music, rather than just one particular chord within it. This approach can really make your music take on a certain kind of feel that can sound very distinctive.
Hope any of that info helps.
Perhaps you used the word "mode" because you were trying to figure out how to accomplish something, without really understanding what modes are. That's perfectly ok as far as i'm concerned, but maybe you can try to ask another way what you are trying to accomplish.
i agree with others, the electronic music video you posted does not have different modes mixed at the same time. In fact I don't really know of any music that has intentionally attempted to do so. now, music can change modes over time, but mixing two different modes at the same time doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Maybe you have a better example of what you're asking about?
Modes are mainly an interesting way to match scale notes to chords. That way you can play other "in-between" notes besides those that are in the current chord. More than one modal scale can be sometimes be used against a particular chord, but not at the same time per say. Its just that you sometimes have the option to use this mode or that mode, depending on the kind of sound you are going after. As you add 7ths to the chord and other tension notes like 9th, 11th, 13ths, then you are further defining the exact tonality of the chord and narrowing it down to a single mode that is possible to use harmoniously over that chord.
Now some modes have a sadder feeling to them, lets call them kind of minor-ish, and some have more of a major feeling. This is mostly related to the 3rd scale degree. If the 3rd scale degree is flatted, then it will sound kind of like minor and if its not, then it will sound kind of like major. But technically speaking there is only one modal minor scale, which is the "Aeolian" mode. There are other non-modal "minor" scales, such as Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc. But in terms of the 7 modal scales, there is only one "minor" scale, Aeolian, and one major scale, "Ionian". However the other 5 modal scales can have a major or minor quality to them. Dorian and Phrygian both have the flatted 3rd scale degree and thus sound very similar to aeolian (ie, minor)...and will have that kind of sensibility to them, but with a twist. On the other hand, Lydian and Mixolydian sound more like Aeolian due to the natural 3rd scale degree. Locrian is the oddball of the group that maybe is lost in space, but that's another topic.
Now if you have a chord playing, if the chord has a flatted 3rd in it, then it would be appropriate to use a minor sounding scale for all the other in-between notes. A loosely defined chord (no 7th,9th, 11th, 13th) will have more options for which of the 3 minor-ish modal scales you want to use for the in-between notes.
Or if you are specifically trying to get more of a Dorian sound or a phyrigian sound, then you would stick to that mode and use that to determine what the chord can be exactly.
You can also base an entire piece of music around a certain mode, so that it moves through chord progressions in a way that emphasizes the tonic note in a way to emphasize that particular modal scale as the basis of the entire piece of music, rather than just one particular chord within it. This approach can really make your music take on a certain kind of feel that can sound very distinctive.
Hope any of that info helps.
Perhaps you used the word "mode" because you were trying to figure out how to accomplish something, without really understanding what modes are. That's perfectly ok as far as i'm concerned, but maybe you can try to ask another way what you are trying to accomplish.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 56 posts since 2 May, 2013 from Canada
[quote="Dewdman42"
Hope any of that info helps.[/quote]
Dude I cant thank u enough,for your time and effort. I know what modes are and in fact I have used them a lot but just the mode itself. What I wanted to accomplish was: as u said use other notes from a "mode" and I don't really know how to explain this but there are notes when played give u this very pleasant feeling. But I guess what my true purpose was to explore and learn new things and make my melodies and chord progressions more interesting by adding some variations. Thanks for sharing your knowledge again! Cheers!!!
Hope any of that info helps.[/quote]
Dude I cant thank u enough,for your time and effort. I know what modes are and in fact I have used them a lot but just the mode itself. What I wanted to accomplish was: as u said use other notes from a "mode" and I don't really know how to explain this but there are notes when played give u this very pleasant feeling. But I guess what my true purpose was to explore and learn new things and make my melodies and chord progressions more interesting by adding some variations. Thanks for sharing your knowledge again! Cheers!!!