Electronic dance music theory - Learning minor scales & other questions

[jontah]

Hi!

I'm currently learning all minor scales, since I know the major scales fairly good.

I have a few thoughts and questions though.

I'm using this site to learn the minor scales:

http://www.pianoworld.com/fun/vpc/piano_chords.htm

If you select "Scale" and select A minor, it doesn't show the real A minor scale as I know it (only white keys). Why is this?

I'm also wondering if it's important to learn these minor scales when producing electronic dance music such as progressive house?


Another thing that I've thought about is learning the circle of fifths fully.

But the question is - DO I REALLY NEED TO KNOW THAT?

Since I know all the scales, I know exactly what flats and sharps there are in the scales, so in that point of view Circle of fifths seems unnecessary for me.

Also, I know that in a major scale it is: I (major) ii (minor) iii (minor) IV (major) V (major) VI (minor) VII (diminished)

And in the minor scale it is: I (minor) ii (diminished) iii (major) IV (minor) V (minor) VI (major) VII (major).

I also know that the V leads to the I and that the I IV and V fits very well together, and the VI and the I fits well together since it's the relative minor/major.

So in that regard too, circle of fifth is pretty unnecessary for me, isnt' it?

I know also that circle of fifth is pretty good when needing to modulate to other keys (which really doesn't EVER happen in house - you always stay to the same key).

So the question is, do I have ANY use of the circle of fifth what so ever when producing this kind of progressive house music? Regarding what I know without the circle.



So.. where should I take it from here to expand my knowledge? I'd really like to learn more about harmonisation and creating melodic patterns that accomplish eachother in a good way. I simply want to take it a step further and understand what to do.

Usually in electronic dance music, people tend to "click" in the pianoroll, without even thinking about music theory, but simply just go downwards or upwards in a scale.

Answers are highly appreciated.

Thanks

[Tricky-Loops]

Also, I know that in a major scale it is: I (major) ii (minor) iii (minor) IV (major) V (major) VI (minor) VII (diminished)

And in the minor scale it is: I (minor) ii (diminished) iii (major) IV (minor) V (minor) VI (major) VII (major).

For C major and C minor I've got a different result:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral_analysis

[Tricky-Loops]

I think you just confused me with the wrong written capitals and low case letters and the missing symbols (° for diminished etc.)...but it seems to be right what you mean...

[Tricky-Loops]

I found some interesting considerations about the Circle of Fifths here:

http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/UserGuide.htm

I'm currently learning the Nashville Number System, so I don't know much about writing chord progressions with the Circle of Fifths...

[JumpingJackFlash]

I'm using this site to learn the minor scales:

http://www.pianoworld.com/fun/vpc/piano_chords.htm

If you select "Scale" and select A minor, it doesn't show the real A minor scale as I know it (only white keys). Why is this?

There are different types of minor scales.
The one you know is called the Natural Minor. There is also the Harmonic Minor and the Melodic Minor.

For some reason, that site defaults to to the melodic minor. Down the bottom there seems to be an option to select what they call "pure minor" which seems to display the natural minor as you know it. But it's not really a great site.

My Introduction to Music Theory explains the differences, and my post on Scales, Modes and Chords might also be useful.

Another thing that I've thought about is learning the circle of fifths fully.

But the question is - DO I REALLY NEED TO KNOW THAT?

You'll get different answers for this.
Personally, I think that for what you want to do, a basic understanding of it should be sufficient. And you seem to know the basics, so I would say that's enough for now. It never hurts to know more of course, but you risk getting yourself confused, and there are probably more productive things for you to be doing than memorising the cycle of fifths.

Also, I know that in a major scale it is: I (major) ii (minor) iii (minor) IV (major) V (major) VI (minor) VII (diminished)

And in the minor scale it is: I (minor) ii (diminished) iii (major) IV (minor) V (minor) VI (major) VII (major).

Doesn't it depend on the key?

No, the pattern is the same for each major or minor key.
The minor version is only true for the notes of the natural minor however. Using notes from the other types of minor scale will lead to the modification of some of these chords. For example, it is common in minor keys to raise the seventh note of the scale to create a major version of chord V.

[Tricky-Loops]

Doesn't it depend on the key?

No, the pattern is the same for each major or minor key.
The minor version is only true for the notes of the natural minor however. Using notes from the other types of minor scale will lead to the modification of some of these chords. For example, it is common in minor keys to raise the seventh note of the scale to create a major version of chord V.

That's why I deleted my question BEFORE you did reply...

I was just confused with the Roman Numerals because I've learned to write capital = major and low case letter = minor and ° means diminished and + means augmented...

But isn't the Nashville Number System easier, anyway, or do I just think so?

[JumpingJackFlash]

That's why I deleted my question BEFORE you did reply...

Ok, didn't realise; sorry!

I was just confused with the Roman Numerals because I've learned to write capital = major and low case letter = minor and ° means diminished and + means augmented...
But isn't the Nashville Number System easier, anyway, or do I just think so?

There are a few different systems. It depends on the style of music as to which is more appropriate in a given context, but you won't get everyone to agree that one system is universally superior.

If the OP is used to one system, then there's no real need for him to change - it just adds a extra layer of unnecessary complexity.

No doubt this will spark a torrent of posts of people arguing about which system is better, none of which will be of any benefit to the OP.

[Dewdman42]

regarding the cycle of 5ths. Why limit yourself?

You seem like a smart guy and you have learned a few things about music theory and have asked for clarification to make sure you have it right.

The cycle of 5ths is not a difficult concept. Learn it. Also, why limit electronic music? You never know what sonic territory you might find by exploring some chord progressions that come to you while exploring the cycle of 5ths.

There are a lot of old songs out there that move through the cycle of 5ths, without really changing keys, the original tonic still feels like home.

[jontah]

regarding the cycle of 5ths. Why limit yourself?

You seem like a smart guy and you have learned a few things about music theory and have asked for clarification to make sure you have it right.

The cycle of 5ths is not a difficult concept. Learn it. Also, why limit electronic music? You never know what sonic territory you might find by exploring some chord progressions that come to you while exploring the cycle of 5ths.

There are a lot of old songs out there that move through the cycle of 5ths, without really changing keys, the original tonic still feels like home.

You've got a point there! I still struggle with chordprogressions in other keys though, eventhough I know which works good according to the theory. I guess what's keeping it interesting is modulation such as sus2, sus4, add9, 7th chords and such.. to add the "flavour" or "color". I need to practice this in all inversions to be able to get better at it.

[Dewdman42]

ok. So adding those notes to chords does not really constitute modulation. Modulation is when you change things to the point that the tonic, or home key seems to change. As long as the music is still driving towards the same tonic and feeling resolved that way there, you aren't really modulating.

In any case, if you want to get more of those add notes to chords, then look into modal interchange.

[Nanakai]

You've got a point there! I still struggle with chordprogressions in other keys though, eventhough I know which works good according to the theory. I guess what's keeping it interesting is modulation such as sus2, sus4, add9, 7th chords and such.. to add the "flavour" or "color". I need to practice this in all inversions to be able to get better at it.

Why?

You're wasting your time, to be blunt. If you actually want to learn this stuff, stop memorizing vocabulary and study some music. It's more useful and far more fun. Pick a piece of music you like, work out what's being played and then describe it using what you've learned so far. What do you think the key is? What scale is the melody in? Are all of the chords diatonic, or do they stray into flats and sharps?

Start simple, but it's way, way better for you than just talking about music.

[Juxtpose]

Personally I reckon you dont need to know any theory, if you want to play serious music like jazz then yeah, bu house, progressive, nah.. thats just my opinion, if you are really struggling and have no clue, then still nah.., from my perspective the problem is you will look at music intellectually, keep struggling until you find what you like. I guess the other side of the coin is you want to learn the formula's that make up certain styles, so maybe.. but nah..

[jancivil]

You've got a point there! I still struggle with chordprogressions in other keys though, eventhough I know which works good according to the theory. I guess what's keeping it interesting is modulation such as sus2, sus4, add9, 7th chords and such.. to add the "flavour" or "color". I need to practice this in all inversions to be able to get better at it.

Why?

You're wasting your time, to be blunt.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... t=#4793643 <- 1-22-2012

If you actually want to learn this stuff, stop memorizing vocabulary and study some music.