A-Z of Rhythm -For Beginers

[The_Hidden_Goose]

I wasn't asking anything mate!

The OP started off with said wiki quote, and then mentioned that the idea of the thread was specifically for rhythm and rhythm related questions. Yes, they then went on to ask for a rather broad and unspecific amount of information, but it's so broad and catch-all that you can take it any way you want really. I took it as an ice-breaker of sorts. I got no gripe with that. If people don't want to share their personal processes or hard-learned and experience bought knowledge that's fine, I can see why they wouldn't want to (financial or otherwise).

And yes, the music theory forum is rich with information, and that's good. Not a complaint of mine. Mine would be a complaint if such discussions were closed down. That they aren't is all good as far as I'm concerned.

Sometimes a little bit of gleaned/stolen/freebooted knowledge can kickstart someone into further, more detailed and perhaps even formal education on the matter.

[jancivil]

[ghettosynth]

If people don't want to share their personal processes or hard-learned and experience bought knowledge that's fine, I can see why they wouldn't want to (financial or otherwise).

No, I think that people have no problem sharing, given that it's an exchange that has some give and take. The OP really didn't invest anything into this thread. That's probably what triggered the reaction that he initially received. I find that annoying as well.

Sometimes a little bit of gleaned/stolen/freebooted knowledge can kickstart someone into further, more detailed and perhaps even formal education on the matter.

Sure, no disagreement.

[jancivil]

EG: as a gesture, the OP could present a track with an actual question, if not his own take on what happened.

there are people, variously, with time on their hands that might respond copiously to the tactic of the OP but I think ~in inverse proportion to the degree of really good tutelage coming...

[ghettosynth]

EG: as a gesture, the OP could present a track with an actual question, if not his own take on what happened.

Exactly, he needs to put a pin somewhere in the vast space of "what is rhythm?"

there are people, variously, with time on their hands that might respond copiously to the tactic of the OP but I think ~in inverse proportion to the degree of really good tutelage coming...

Perhaps, or even if this isn't true, the responses will be stabs all over the vast space of what's interesting about rhythm.

In short, it's ok to start with a question, it's ok to start with a position, but in either case, have one. If you don't, you're as likely to get lots of posts about many KVR members second favorite pastime, bitching, as you are about the thing that you're really interested in.

I mean, shit, look at the title. "The A to Z of rhythm, for beginners" WTF? That sounds like a bad mel bay book on playing rock guitar. A thread is a terrible place to compose the "A to Z" of just about anything, let alone something so broad as rhythm.

And for beginners? Is the OP a beginner? If so, then I'll have some of what he's smoking if he thinks that you can get a book written for you just by posting a f**king quote from wikipedia, and in yellow!

If he's not a beginner, then he should be contributing something, unless, of course, it's just a troll, in which case, this kind of long-winded "meta-post" is precisely the content that this thread deserves.

[jancivil]

well the icebreaker was my first post, appropos to the point hardly at all... and I could have prattled on a bit if I hadn't found something else that was even more anodyne to sort myself out by. and we'll get Mike going on a bit in this kind of quasi-philosophy exercise, and now that someone wasn't MissEnabler, Hink and his sensitivity training... it's the usual sitcom when there's no focus.

[Halma]

I stay ontopic:

My advice in becoming better at beat programming: listen to a lot of music. Listen to a lot of drummers. That's how I do it.

Luckily I have a small vinyl collection with lots of Jazz, Funk & Soul records from the past and a small amount of Classic House & Techno.

Funnily I programmed my beats with lots of jazz techniques though I was not aware of that. Eg the typical 3-2 Brazilian Clave rhythm pattern or HiHtas with typical swing patterns. I adopted it by listening to the artists.

Thank god the internet has so much information to offer. After reading lots of stuff things are making sense now and I am surprised how many different drum techniques I have used in the past and did not know them.

Btw you can learn so much about beat programming if you only "re-program" the beats from the original 808 manual with all accents and apply groove to them after that.

Historically the Rhythm Section in Jazz changed a lot. Recently I finished reading the biography of Jelly Roll Morton and it's so damn interesting to read how everything evolved.

Eg the technique to slap or pick a bass isn't that old. Before that everyone played the bass with a bow. That was one of the reasons why the bass instrument was not that common in jazz music before the "invention of that playing technique". Instead they used a trombone for that part. So the bass playing style as we know it today is actually a pretty young invention. And became part of the Rhythm section that way.

Listen & learn. And research those parts you are interested in. And don't forget: have fun.

Regards
Sebastian

[HaganeSteel]

I stay ontopic:

My advice in becoming better at beat programming: listen to a lot of music. Listen to a lot of drummers. That's how I do it.

Luckily I have a small vinyl collection with lots of Jazz, Funk & Soul records from the past and a small amount of Classic House & Techno.

Funnily I programmed my beats with lots of jazz techniques though I was not aware of that. Eg the typical 3-2 Brazilian Clave rhythm pattern or HiHtas with typical swing patterns. I adopted it by listening to the artists.

Thank god the internet has so much information to offer. After reading lots of stuff things are making sense now and I am surprised how many different drum techniques I have used in the past and did not know them.

Btw you can learn so much about beat programming if you only "re-program" the beats from the original 808 manual with all accents and apply groove to them after that.

Historically the Rhythm Section in Jazz changed a lot. Recently I finished reading the biography of Jelly Roll Morton and it's so damn interesting to read how everything evolved.

Eg the technique to slap or pick a bass isn't that old. Before that everyone played the bass with a bow. That was one of the reasons why the bass instrument was not that common in jazz music before the "invention of that playing technique". Instead they used a trombone for that part. So the bass playing style as we know it today is actually a pretty young invention. And became part of the Rhythm section that way.

Listen & learn. And research those parts you are interested in. And don't forget: have fun.

Regards
Sebastian

There is so much +1 to this it's not even funny.

I'm a video game music composer, and here's what I did:

My favorite video game artists all used pretty much the same synthesizer: The Roland SC-88. So the more I listened to them, the more I became familiar with that instrument. Then once I became familiar with the sounds and samples used in the SC-88, after using some of them myself in various forms, I slowly started to hear/absorb all of their techniques.

So basically, I focused on learning a single popular synthesizer, listened to a bunch of music made with that synthesizer, and learned how to program specifically for that synthesizer, which carried over into all the other music I did.

That gave me a good starting point, helped me learn rhythm, and created a foundation for everything I do today, not just with rhythm, but with everything. That Roland SC-88 was a big catalyst for teaching me music in general.

Then I studied other types of rhythm from people who did the same thing ras.s is doing in this thread (amazing post, by the way - I love you for sharing that. I hope you realize this).

[Fox Crazy]

I just wanna say that after lurking here for... I think about a year now, this is my first post and this thread convinced me to make it for a number of reasons. Attitude from the bad apples, actual awesome and helpful people, and someone who has a similar interest to me.

I want to thank the people here who posted honestly, giving informative, interesting and insightful replies rather than being pissy about the fact that things are changing and they don't like others getting for free what they payed for. We're in the information age, deal with it, you're going to have to because it's only going to go further from here.

A large part of why information ever costed as much as it did (and does) to begin with is because so many people are so incredibly greedy. Information such as this has no intrinsic physical properties outside the electricity it takes to convey it and arguably time if you count that as physical. The net result of this is that the internet, making it so easy to both receive and convey ideas and knowledge, has caused a cascading effect of the actual value we place on knowledge dropping through the floor. People ask "what is something, how does it work" and a cloud of voices instantly chime in to answer because they've got 15 minutes to waste and like being helpful. Things like Wikipedia exist because of this. This is here now, and it's not likely to do anything other than become more prevalent.

But seriously, I do want to thank a few people, namely...

Ras.s and the people who followed up on his discussion because, while that's not really my style of music, you never know where you're going to find useful elements or inspiration to pull from, and an understanding of how and why people do things is helpful even if you apply it in a completely different manner. Few people have a grasp on something like these people seem to, and it's rare you get someone who can really sit down and explain the actual gears behind something so abstract such as music.

HaganeSteel, because while I think I come from a different part of video game land than him, I'm in a similar boat. If I could be anything musically, I'd like to become a video game composer, and I'm sorta doing the same thing he did. So it's nice to know from an outside source it's not a complete waste of time. Personally what I tend to do is pick apart MIDIs of music I like, and try to understand what makes them tick, but it's not too different than studying the actual patterns and trying to copy and reverse engineer them. You'd be surprised what you can learn, and even what stares you directly in the face for years without notice (For instance, I've heard FF6's battle music probably over a thousand times, but it never clicked with me that the percussion actually follows a pattern similar to that of modern drum and bass until I started prying it apart). I do wonder what video game music he refers to using the SC-88 though, I'm more versed in chip music (YM2612 FTW) than older recorded stuff to be honest.

Monib, just for reminding me Sound on Sound exists. While a lot of stuff there goes right the hell over my head, it's been invaluable for understanding certain things about synth, alongside other various resources out there. I'll have to give it a looking at.

Good on the helpful people here and let it be known it is appreciated and is in fact the right thing. Not just the information age, but technology in general is making it easier and easier for people to get into music, be it as a composer/producer, a performer, or whatever. Fact is, this can be good or bad, it can produce a monument of trash, or it can create an unrivaled hotspot of talent and creativity, and it largely depends on people's willingness to help others learn and accept new and different things.

Oh, and as a side note... Since someone linked some rock music that I THINK is in 7/4, I'll add this weirdness in as my own contribution:



That stuff blows my head, I've tried picking that apart a few times and I don't even know where to start.

[vurt]

copied from fox crazy's post to make link clickable

[JumpingJackFlash]

People ask "what is something, how does it work" and a cloud of voices instantly chime in to answer because they've got 15 minutes to waste and like being helpful.

The problem is when the answers contradict each other because the people giving them don't really know what they're talking about. Far from helping the person asking for help, they are confused even more and forced to go down avenues they are not ready for. In addition, often the original person doesn't know enough to actually ask the right questions ("what key do I need to press to get F minor" is one recent example).

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. But teach a man how to fish, and you feed him for life.

Sometimes telling someone just what they want to hear isn't actually going to be the most helpful answer in the long run. Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind.

Like many other things, the Internet can be a wonderful tool. It can also be misused. No matter how advanced technology gets, relying on it as your sole source of knowledge is never likely to be fruitful.

[Fox Crazy]

I really don't want to derail this any more than it already has been, can we just stick to discussing rhythm? What I'm trying to say is that despite how people want to justify it, that attitude is regressive, and little more than disruptive and in the way of meaningful discussion. This thread could fulfill its purpose as well as any other. :/

Also, thanks for linking that for me proper, I guess I need more posts or whatever.

[Hink]

People ask "what is something, how does it work" and a cloud of voices instantly chime in to answer because they've got 15 minutes to waste and like being helpful.

The problem is when the answers contradict each other because the people giving them don't really know what they're talking about. Far from helping the person asking for help, they are confused even more and forced to go down avenues they are not ready for. In addition, often the original person doesn't know enough to actually ask the right questions ("what key do I need to press to get F minor" is one recent example).

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. But teach a man how to fish, and you feed him for life.

Sometimes telling someone just what they want to hear isn't actually going to be the most helpful answer in the long run. Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind.

Like many other things, the Internet can be a wonderful tool. It can also be misused. No matter how advanced technology gets, relying on it as your sole source of knowledge is never likely to be fruitful.

but people trying to learn how to fish are afraid to go into the water because of the sharks and the antics here with all those who want to be right...there is no such thing as a stupid question is what I was taught but here in this forum (which is a serious black eye for KvR) not only are there stupid questions but those people who ask them get attacked. A respectful disscussion can actually take place in this world without people going on the offensive like happens here all the time. When people go on the offensive it's only natural for other sto go on the defensive.

Sad there is so little tact in a place that could benefit everyone, I read books and only come here to search and see what people say about a particular subject or I might notice a thread on a subject I currently am reading about...but this forum is one of very few places I doubt I will ever ask too many questions because I do not need to get attacked for asking questions...when you have a mod locking another thread and he says "always this forum" or the like it's a problem and the main forum members should take note.

How are you helping people learn to fish when all that happens is the egos clash and the poor person looking for info is judged, attacked, mocked and treated with disrespect...when is disrespect ever appropriate and while I'm at it note how many people including myself have criticized the behavior here but do so with respect...no swearing, no name calling...just simply expressing an opinion...I do have a right to an opinion right? Others do have the right to ask questions and have opinions right?

Now you might say this is not the place for my opinion but I disagree...KvR is a community, one that I really care about...I have very good friends I have made here and i have grown and learned a lot here and I joined KvR when I was 44, had been playing and recording for over 30 years. KvR is an awesome resource but do you not see with the bickering that goes on here all it does is hurt KvR, confuse those answering the questions with conflicting info and worse because of the attitudes when they get confused they are afraid to ask another question...is that what you want because that is what is happening. Like I say I care about KvR, I mod another forum here which I am quite proud of as that forum was my suggestion and imho has made KvR a better place...I want KvR to maintain a level of maturity, tact and respect that people want to keep coming back for all the forums. A lot of companies survive because they have forums here, they deserve for their forums to have a home too. But the truth is an egotist is always extremely selfish and as a result only care about being right and they dont care about others or who else they hurt.

The music forum needs some serious attitude changes...I like your posts dude but after this thread I would not want any of the experts in this thread as a teacher because from the behavior here the way of teaching is talking at people not to people and that is offensive to those being talked at.

Take what you like from this, call me an ass, call me smart, tell me to bugger off, tell people to ignore me (sorry that makes me laugh, the person who told everyone that in this thread is teaching ignorance as ignore is the root of ignorance which is perfect par for the course in this forum)...one thing I know, I didn't make it this way and I never would treat a person I didn't know how people get treated here.

What a shame, but worse the ones that really look bad are the cause of the problem too...the question to ask is are you part of the problem or part of the solution...I remember when this forum was suggested, this is not imo what was intended for it to be

[vignesh.vijay]

"Rhythm generally means a "movement marked by the regulated succession of strong and weak elements, or of opposite or different conditions."[2] This general meaning of regular recurrence or pattern in time can apply to a wide variety of cyclical natural phenomena having a periodicity or frequency of anything from microseconds to millions of years."(source :Wikipedia)

Hi guys ,

Wanted to create a thread only for Rhythm and Rhythm related questions . This thread will be for people who are beginers just like me and want to learn more about the theory behind rhythm of a track . Someone please start off by throwing light on this and detailed analysis of rhythm in a track .


Thanks

Not to burst your bubble, but information/experience/service of the type for which you are asking, I charge (as should any trained musician with an ounce of self-respect and professional pride).

I understand Internet culture encourages "get everything for free" thinking, but if you really want to learn, you need to find a teacher and be prepared to pay them for the value they provide. You'll probably get some answers in this thread, but if you are looking for anything beyond the superficial, prepare to be disappointed.

A couple things for you and others to reflect on:

1) I spent a great deal of time and money on my musical training (as have others)--why shouldn't an upcoming student seeking my aid (or someone else's) not show the same level of commitment?

2) Money is a gatekeeper. If you really want to learn, you'll find a way to pay. If you don't, then it's questionable whether you were ever truly serious about the study of music.

3) Music instructors are not charities. They teach for a living. Be willing to show their artistry and knowledge some respect, and demonstrate it in the form of money and commitment.

Now, I'm not coming down hard on you at all, and I certainly don't mean to come across that way if I have, but I have written what I have because I think your post demonstrates a rather unconscious and pernicious type of thinking (increasingly common today) that will hinder your musical and intellectual progress, so as a teacher, I feel ethically bound to say so.

But I won't leave you empty-handed on your rhythm question. So here's a little nugget for you to reflect upon: It makes very little sense whatsoever to consider rhythm without discussing its relationship to other musical elements at a given point of musical time (ie, of what is there a rhythm, and what is its nature?).

Hi KBSoundSmith ,

I have nothing against to trainers and teachers . I respect them a lot . So what do you want people who don't have access to good teachers to do ?
This thread is not for me alone . Its for anyone who wants to learn .
I beleive that knowledge is something which has to be shared . If you don't want to , you don't have to . But why do you want other people to stop learning ? If other people want to share their knowledge , let them do it . Why do you have to stop them ?

[Hink]

knowledge is free, that's why for centuries there have been free public libraries