TAL BassLine-101

[Ingonator]

deleted

[cyberheater]

I've looked at the circuit diagram for the filters for both machines. The resisters and capacitors values are the same for the 4 stages using the same chip so they should sound identical.

The VCO is different though. SH101 is using a SEM3340 and the Juno's use discrete components. I've built a VCO on breadboad using the Juno method. It produces a very nice bright and buzzy saw.

I wouldn't imagine that there wouldn't be much difference in on sound between both VCO's.

[Andywanders]

Just trying this now

How do you get the sequencer to record on every consecutive step with midi input?

It seems to record on every 4 steps here.

Weird.

Seems to work normally here. I am using the Windows 32-bit version.
My controller keyboards are a Yamaha Motif ES 7 and a KORg Wavestation EX.

If you click and hold "MIDI EXPORT" (below the sequencer) you could drag and drop the pattern to your DAW (in my case Ableton Live. The result also depends on the rate setting in the sequencer.


Ingo

My fault

My keyboard was in Master mode and transmitting on 4 MIDI channels - each note played sent four down the MIDI pipe.

It's working fine now.

Stoopid me

[olikana]

I've looked at the circuit diagram for the filters for both machines. The resisters and capacitors values are the same for the 4 stages using the same chip so they should sound identical.

there must be other elements that may affect the filter sound though.
i tried sweeping the filter step by step with max resonance yet couldn't find that almost FM -esque interference noise you find at some frequencies in the juno6 (and in the uno-lx).
example of the uno-lx nonlinearity that I can't find the in bassline101
(warning not a pretty sound!)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/503 ... rquirk.wav
and generally speaking the filters don't sound identical to me. similar yes...but the juno seems to have more ireegular and spiky nonlinearities . the bassline 101 more homgenous and kinda warm across the spectrum.

[cyberheater]

I've looked at the circuit diagram for the filters for both machines. The resisters and capacitors values are the same for the 4 stages using the same chip so they should sound identical.

there must be other elements that may affect the filter sound though.
i tried sweeping the filter step by step with max resonance yet couldn't find that almost FM -esque interference noise you find at some frequencies in the juno6 (and in the uno-lx).
example of the uno-lx nonlinearity that I can't find the in bassline101
(warning not a pretty sound!)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/503 ... rquirk.wav
and generally speaking the filters don't sound identical to me. similar yes...but the juno seems to have more ireegular and spiky nonlinearities . the bassline 101 more homgenous and kinda warm across the spectrum.

With careful tweaking I could get the same sound on both synths. To the point they sounded identical to me. It would not surprise me if the coder used the same filter code on both machines.

[EvilDragon]

...but he didn't.

[xalama qo]

there must be other elements that may affect the filter sound though.

as olikana has pointed out, aren't we possibly overlooking the fact that TAL modelled the synths on actual hardware that he owns, fine-tuned by ear/measurement to their specific quirks? As we all know, no two (vintage) analogs of the same species will sound identical, let alone 2 different models that share similar traits. Therefore, if you take away the perfect theory of circuit diagrams etc, what TAL has done (possibly/probably) is, he's pefectly emulated two different personalities. So expecting the same behaviour from similar parameter ranges is a bit silly, IMO. That should only work on paper. Having 2 flavours to work with is a positive in my book.

[olikana]

I've looked at the circuit diagram for the filters for both machines. The resisters and capacitors values are the same for the 4 stages using the same chip so they should sound identical.

there must be other elements that may affect the filter sound though.
i tried sweeping the filter step by step with max resonance yet couldn't find that almost FM -esque interference noise you find at some frequencies in the juno6 (and in the uno-lx).
example of the uno-lx nonlinearity that I can't find the in bassline101
(warning not a pretty sound!)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/503 ... rquirk.wav
and generally speaking the filters don't sound identical to me. similar yes...but the juno seems to have more ireegular and spiky nonlinearities . the bassline 101 more homgenous and kinda warm across the spectrum.

With careful tweaking I could get the same sound on both synths. To the point they sounded identical to me. It would not surprise me if the coder used the same filter code on both machines.

prove it then:P
the sound above is just: sawtooth +max resonance +filter cut off just above 50% (no KT , no modulation)
I did the same on bassline101 : sawtoiooth +mas rexonance + no matter how much filter cutoff it will never sound even close.

there are some frequencies where the bassline 101 filter exhibits some of that "ringing " but it's all very controlled, saturated, almost moogy.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/503 ... quirks.wav
(ofc u can hear that's the same filter more or less)...but nothing over the top like in the uno-lx (and i assume the juno).

[cyberheater]

prove it then:P

If I've got some time later on then I'll try.

[electro]

there must be other elements that may affect the filter sound though.

as olikana has pointed out, aren't we possibly overlooking the fact that TAL modelled the synths on actual hardware that he owns, fine-tuned by ear/measurement to their specific quirks? As we all know, no two (vintage) analogs of the same species will sound identical, let alone 2 different models that share similar traits. Therefore, if you take away the perfect theory of circuit diagrams etc, what TAL has done (possibly/probably) is, he's pefectly emulated two different personalities. So expecting the same behaviour from similar parameter ranges is a bit silly, IMO. That should only work on paper. Having 2 flavours to work with is a positive in my book.

An A/B reference file with filter sweeps was provided to indicate how similar the hardware sounds. Hardware plays first
http://kunz.corrupt.ch/downloads/mp3/SH ... ne-101.mp3

[olikana]

@electro can't you even read what we was discussing? we was discussing juno filter vs bassline filter. in theory the same filter IR3109 but in practice sounding different in the 2 synths and we was debating that. how is what you posted releavant?
it's like replying "no" to "what time is it?"

[olikana]

btw I found this info from gearslutz and by Sean ("valhalla")
Both use the IR3109 VCF chip, but the SH-101 has back-to-back diodes going to ground in its feedback path,

so the juno filter and the sh-101 are not identical after all...and it also explain the more saturated sound

[Synthbuilder]

The SH-101 and Juno-6 filter are not the same. They both use the IR3109 in cascade mode, but the resonance and signal pathways are different.

The Juno uses a VCA in the feedback path, so to allow voltage control over the resonance. This is needed since it has multiple voices and one common resonance control. The SH-101 uses a slider pot and a simple buffer circuit with a diode clipper. The Juno's VCA will also act as a clipper but will present a different type of waveform shaping to the simple diodes.

Furthermore the Juno increases the signal level into the filter at higher resonances to maintain overall volume. While the SH-101 increases the signal to the final VCA at higher resonances. In a linear filter and VCA system this wouldn't make a great deal of difference, but the IR3109 filter and BA662 VCA are non linear components so differing signal levels have an impact on the sound of the system.

Tony

[cyberheater]

btw I found this info from gearslutz and by Sean ("valhalla")
Both use the IR3109 VCF chip, but the SH-101 has back-to-back diodes going to ground in its feedback path,

so the juno filter and the sh-101 are not identical after all...and it also explain the more saturated sound

So the two diodes provide a clamp when the signal gets hot which will provide added bite or distortion when using high resonance.

Interesting.

I can't say I've noticed that when testing the V/A. Anyone else noticed it?

[electro]

@electro can't you even read what we was discussing? we was discussing juno filter vs bassline filter. in theory the same filter IR3109 but in practice sounding different in the 2 synths and we was debating that. how is what you posted releavant?
it's like replying "no" to "what time is it?"

So you want to know why the Juno 60 and the SH-101 VCF behave differently? I understand the JX3P and Juno60 use identical VCF components unlike SH-101, but I could be wrong.

btw I found this info from gearslutz and by Sean ("valhalla")
Both use the IR3109 VCF chip, but the SH-101 has back-to-back diodes going to ground in its feedback path,

so the juno filter and the sh-101 are not identical after all...and it also explain the more saturated sound

Bingo, and this is as good as its going to get until you start asking for access to parameter moddding at the circuit level.