NI Monark filter in other Reaktor ensembles, an approach (improved results and new demos added )

[alexmshore]

Will also be intereted to see the results.

Nice work Ingo

[Ingonator]

post deleted. See later posts for updates.


Ingo

[kmonkey]

supa nice

[olikana]

i bought reakltor last month for 99 just to be able to use monark poly and eventually be able to make other mods to it .
but the poly implemnetation for starters didn't sound right

this is the THE POLY MOD by fluxmind (same as the one ingo copied and pasted in his thread)

POLY MOD
1. Enable editing mode, Go to "Panel/Monark/Monark", disconnect from "Volt" cell PK, GT
2. Create "Note Pitch" and "Gate" and connect "Note Pitch" to PK and Gate to GT
3. Go into the "Function" tab of the "Gate" module (right-click and "Properties") and set "Upper Limit (MIDI) to 1 (instead of 127).
4. Still at the same place disconnect "Volt" cell from "Out 1", create "Out Port" and "Audio Voice Combiner" and Connect "Audio Voice Combiner" output to Out 1 and Out 2 and then Connect "Volt" cell output to Audio Voice Combiner input
5. Now go to "Panel/Monark" disconnect Out 2 and connect that Out 2 to Second free Out
6. Go back to "Panel/Monark/Monark" and disable "Mono" in "Volt" cells properties
7. Go to back to "panel" click on Monark name and in Properties page enable as many voices as you want (or how many your CPU could handle...)
8. Go to file and save ensemble as Monark Poly, because I don't now how to make a switch for mono/poly yet, so you will have 2 versions, one normal monophonic and one Polyphonic
A few features like e.g. page B settings don't seem to be available now.

the poly mod is missing some sort of voice randomization to make it sound natural.as it stands it sounds rigid. also you don't get full release of a poly . you still get the release of a monosynth.


i think it is important in making a supermonark to get the polymod right

[Ingonator]

It's right that the poly mod was found by fluxmind but it was me who added everything he posted (including updates he posted later) into a single procedure.
BTW in most of my posts (especially my Monark thread) i mentioned fluxmind as the original author.

Concerning "natural poly" i think that new ensemble already sounds quite nice. It also does not use the oscillators of Monark, in fact only the filter module is from Monark.


Ingo

[olikana]

probably that issue i mentioned gets solved when getting rid of monark's oscillator modules or other key modules. not tried it yet. but obviously if only the filter from monark is present that won't have much impact on voice handling.
so should be fine.

[Ingonator]

UPDATE:
Problem solved, see next posts.


Ingo

[Ingonator]

UPDATE:
There seems to be a strange problem with this. After i re-loaded the ensemble most of the knobs did not seem to have an effect on the sound As i changed nothing this is really weird.
It seems to go back to normal if i disconnect the LFO but comes back when re-loading the ensemble. Have to check this.

Maybe this is somehow based on parts that i removed while "extzracting" the Monark filter from the original ensemble. Maybe will try to start again from an earlier stage.

Now i get an idea how frustrating it must be to be a software developer...

UPDATE:
Now i got it back to normal by deactivating and re-activating the Gate module.

After going back to the original version of the Monark ensemble and reducing it step by step again i decided to use the Monark envelopes besides the filter.
This seems to lead to a promising result. Filter overload seems to work too now.

I'll try to reduce this to as few modules as possible and also try to find out why this does not work properly with the standard envelopes.

Here is a screenshot of how the Monark macro looks currently (not much different to the last one but the envelopes are added now):



(this screenshot was just updated with redundant parameters/modules removed)

About "Quick bus" connections:

I left some of the "Quick bus" connections (the connections that do not use a wire, e.g. "AEG" or "FEG" in this example). To create a Quick bus you could right click on an input of e.g. the filter module and use "Create new quick bus". On another module you could then use right-click and go to "Connect To Quick Bus" which opens a drop-down menu with existing connections. If done properly this could save some "mess" with the wires.

I got no detailed instructions yet as i'm not really finished. Those who want to rebuild this based on the missing Monark modules and the screenshot could use this ensemble where i deleted the two Monark modules:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... lter_2.ens

To recreate the Quick bus connections (starting from a saved version of the Monark macros/modules) the best is to use the "Create New Quick Bus" feature for the Filter & Amplifier module (for those shown at the screenshot) and the use the "Connect to QuickBus" feature for the two outputs in the envelope module (select AEG or FEG from the drop-down list).
For the connections already included with the "preparation" module you could use "Connect to QuickBus" too (e.g. for "Load"). I think that most connections in that preparation module are not necessary but i was not sure yet. Will try to check that.

Important:
The "sc" input of the filter module has to be connected to "SR.C" by choosing "Connect to SR.C" from the right-click menu (SR.C = Sample Rate Clock).

In the Reaktor Core manual this is explained at page 34:
http://www.native-instruments.com/filea ... ual_EN.pdf



Without the additional envelope modules (besides those from Monark) the rest of the ensemble looks quite simple now:



This is how the GUI looks now, not really nice but it works:



A remaining issue is that the Release still does not seem to work even if the switches are added to the envelope module.

No problems observed after re-loading this ensemble several times. The source of the problem with using "standard" envelopes is still unknown.


The current conclusion is that generally it is no big problem to communicate with the Monark Core Cell modules if you add the right inputs to communicate with other (e.g. standard) modules. The problems that remain seem to be found in some details which is no very easy to find.


BTW i don't plan to add more oscillators in this experiment. The Supersaw from Alex Shore's JP-4c should do for now.



UPDATE:
I replaced the envelopes in this example with standard Core modules (inside the Monark macro) and it still seems to work fine.
Removing some of the connections i thought they are not necessary seemed to lead to then old problem. Now i have to find out on which of of those connections is indeed essential.

UPDATE:
It looks like the problems i found in the earlier version were based on some setting that i had removed from the "preparation" module (that one is not locked).
Here is a screenshot of the parameters that seem to be essential:



The original "preparation" module was huge with tons of modules and parameters.
The fact that i could now use other envelopes does not make the other approach with using the Monark envelopes redundant. It just shows that the problem was not solved by using those envelopes but by keeping the "preparation" module.

I just updated the screenshot and the ensemble file with the new version of the "preparation" module.


Ingo

[Ingonator]

Here is an audio demo of the "default" patch in the current ensemble (see last post for details, patch also shown in the screenshot):

Monark Supersaw demo 02

No external FXs added. Also no internal FXs used for this.

The Minimoog filter (mode 0 in the ensemble, mode 3 would be the BPF) was used with a small amount of filter overload.


This is a demo of a resonant Bass sound using both filter overload and feedback:

Monark Supersaw demo 03


I really wish that NI adds this or similar (0df) filters to Reaktor at some point.


Ingo

[kmonkey]

Great

[JoeCat]

Great idea, great results!

NI know how much you're helping to sell their products?

Reaktor's sound capabilities are now far, far outweighing its GUI advances. As usable as the default GUI is (and it really does work just fine, as well as including about all one needs), unless you are loving retro I think it's a turn-off to most people. Wouldn't be so bad, but the options for skinning are basically "change colors or completely roll your own".

A basic set of resizable, modern mix-match elements, color and font choices, and it's unbeatable.

[Ingonator]

Great idea, great results!

NI know how much you're helping to sell their products?

Reaktor's sound capabilities are now far, far outweighing its GUI advances. As usable as the default GUI is (and it really does work just fine, as well as including about all one needs), unless you are loving retro I think it's a turn-off to most people. Wouldn't be so bad, but the options for skinning are basically "change colors or completely roll your own".

A basic set of resizable, modern mix-match elements, color and font choices, and it's unbeatable.

Many thanks for the comment.

I love both the Minimoog filter and supersaw sounds so this was a logical step followed by the coincidence that Alex just posted his JP-4c ensemble.

One remaining problem is that the envelope release still does not work. Hopefully i'll find that soon too.
Will try to analyze the Monark ensemble for that again...


UPDATE:
I minimized Monark to the absolute minimum of modules and the envelope release was working fine all the time.

I found that the Release seem to disappear as soon as i disconnect the Monark oscillator and connect the Supersaw through an input to the Monark macro instead (or other "non Core" oscillators). This means the problem is based on the oscillator or the input somehow.

When adding another Core Cell oscillator directly in the Moanrk Core macro it is working normally too.

Quite strange how the oscillator could cause this.

Until i find a solution (which will not be easy) i try to use a Reverb FX (modified version of that from JP-4c) to "mimic" the Release stage.


Ingo

[Ingonator]

Based on a modified ensemble here is an audio demo of a Synth Strings sound:

Monark Supersaw demo 04

This is a single instance and no external FXs added.
This uses the LP2 filter of Monark for a brighter sound (= mode 1 in the GUI).

Here is a screenshot of the patch:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... d%2014.png


Ingo

[Ingonator]

Since it turned out that the current ensemble works quite nicely (except the problem with the envelope release)i did several changes and additions now.

Changes are: different name ("JP Model D" based on the fact it's a mix of a JP-8000 and a Minimoog), new background color, second Supersaw oscillator (+ mixer),
Phaser FX, new Reverb FX and a new Chorus FX.

Here is an audio demo using the Phaser FX ("KleinStein" Phaser from the Reaktor factory content):

Monark Supersaw demo 05

This is a single instance and no external FXs added.
This uses the LP2 filter of Monark for a brighter sound (= mode 1 in the GUI).

Here is a screnshot of the current GUI which shows that patch from the demo:



Here is the structure of the ensemble:



This is how the Monark macro looks now (same as in the last version):



For those who want to rebuild this using the Monark filter & amp + the Monark envelope module could try this ensemble file (protected Monark modules removed):

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... filter.ens

If the CPU use is too high you could reduce the voices (currently 5) in the ensemble options.

Lots of things could be added to this but for the moment it seems to be quite usable already.




Ingo

[Ingonator]

UPDATE:
Just found that the envelope release also works when i connect a Core Cell oscillator to the input of the Monark macro, not only when the oscillator is inside the macro. This is not possible witha "standard" oscillator.

I just tried to replace one of the Saws in the Supersaw macro with a Core module and the envelope release works now!! Will replace all of them (7 saws) now.

UPDATE:
Replaced the Saw oscillators in the Supersaw macro with Core modules but the CPU use is higher. Maybe i must remove the second Supersaw oscillator.

UPDATE:
Just created a new Core macro with 7 Saws that use less CPU than 7 single Saw macros. Here is the file with the Core macro:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... ws%201.rcc

Here is the modified ensemble file (without Monark modules):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... filter.ens

If the CPU use is to high here is the same with a single Supersaw oscillator:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... filter.ens

The CPU use of this is quite high, currently the best solution is to reduce the polyphony.

The rest of the ensemble is the same and the screenshots in the last post still work for this.


UPDATE:
This is how the original Supersaw macro from JP-4c looks:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... l_1%20.png

This is how the new version with the Core macro for the oscillators looks:




Ingo