Pentatonic scales & chords

[chemicalfan]

Apologies if this post seems very ignorant, but I guess I am in some ways! That said, I am looking to learn, so that must count for something, right? I've looked around on Google for ages, but I cannot find an answer to my question (or at least, one that I can understand). I suspect that I am thinking about this all wrong, but maybe you can help me get out of my muddle?

I want to write music using a minor pentatonic or blues scale, as I like the "sound" of the notes in combination, plus I like the limit of only 5/6 notes when composing. And although I am a computer musician, I admire blues guitarists very much, and classic songs apparently seem to use these scales more often than not. However, when it comes to composing, I cannot get my head around the chords I can use to accompany the melody. Do I build the chords from the 5 notes? In which case, a root triad would occupy both the "bottom" and the "top" of the scale, which appears a bit weird? Or, do you build chords from the "main" scale, i.e. the standard 8 note harmonic minor? If that's the case, could you use the corresponding major scale instead (i.e. C major instead of A minor)?

Before anyone says "have a play" or "listen to other songs and learn from them", remember that Beethoven was deaf but still very much able to compose masterpieces. I'm not saying I'm Beethoven, but music theory should work just as well on paper as it does to the ear. I should be able to write music away from a keyboard, and then take it to the keyboard to play.

[Nanakai]

To your last point, music theory (by which you mean tonal harmony) explains the phenomenon of hearing music. It's not some abstract calculus that you can apply outside of experience. No matter what you learn to write on paper, if you don't experience it as music, then you're not really learning anything. Beethoven had a musical memory, not a musical slide rule.

That said, the blues isn't about harmonizing any pentatonic scale, and blues playing typically goes the other way around (applying scales to chords). I'm not much of a blues player, but hopefully this will clear something up. Your basic blues pattern will consist of I7 (or i7), IV7 and V7. So, you could play in A major, which would give you A7 (A C# E G), D7 (D F# A C) and E7 ( E G# B D). We're already well beyond 5 tones in the scale, but notice that we're also not using your standard diatonic scale. The blues loves its b7, as does rock. Since there is no one diatonic or pentatonic scale that fits all of these chords, blues players will typically play the changes, meaning that they play a different scale for each chord. Which scale you play is largely up to you, but you will want to keep it either major or minor, depending on the chord, and keep the same 7th (most often b7). So, you might play A Major pentatonic with A7, E mixolydian with E7 and go back to the major pentatonic for D7.

There's *a lot* more to this, but that's the jist. Don't worry about building a whole bluesy song from one scale, as it will sound like crap.

[chemicalfan]

*mind blown*
I'm going to go sit in the foetal position in the corner, sucking my thumb.

Thanks for the long post though, very informative!! (if a little scary!)

[stringtapper]

Before anyone says "have a play" or "listen to other songs and learn from them", remember that Beethoven was deaf but still very much able to compose masterpieces. I'm not saying I'm Beethoven, but music theory should work just as well on paper as it does to the ear. I should be able to write music away from a keyboard, and then take it to the keyboard to play.

Not to put too fine a point on this, but citing Beethoven's deafness as a reason for written theory to stand on its own is bogus. Beethoven may have been deaf but he ultimately didn't need his sense of hearing in order to compose some of the greatest music ever conceived because of one thing: audiation.

That is, the ability to imagine sounds in one's mind. Being able to connect the intellectual aspects of music (theory) with certain sounds and audiate them ispretty much the entire point of studying ear training and sight singing. It's something all of the great composers of the classical tradition could do well. Very well.

Let's put it this way: Beethoven could audiate like a motherf**ker.

Being able to think in theoretical terms about some piece of music that doesn't already exist, like a melody or a chord progression, and then hear it fully formed in your mind is what audiation is. Or being able to do it the other way around: hear a progression in your head, analyze it, and then write it down.

So you're right that you should be able to write music away from the keyboard, but you should be able to hear it in your mind as well.



As to your question about what are popularly called pentatonic scales (known in music theory and ethnomusicology as an "anhemitonic" pentatonic scale or pitch collection):

Pentatonic scales of this type are essentially subsets of the seven-note scales we use in major and minor keys. They are subsets that lack the tendency tones from the parent scale. For this reason (and others), pentatonic scales are often used to derive melodic material rather than harmonic material.

If you think of yourself as being in

C major - C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

and take the

C pentatonic scale - C-D-E-G-A

you notice that you don't have the F and B from the C major scale, which are the tendency tones in the key of C major if one is writing in a classical tonal style. They form the interval of a tritone and are the tendency tones within the V7 chord in C major, spelled G-B-D-F. In a classical V-I cadence the B moves up to C and the F moves down to E, forming the I chord (tonic) C-E-G.

In lots of pop music you don't have cadences like this, they sound "old fashioned" to many modern ears. So while you might still use the chords of the C major scale to derive your harmony, the kind of chord progressions you might write won't work in the same way as they do in classical tonal harmony (that is, functionally).

Since none of the tones of the pentatonic scale are tendency tones they tend(!) to sound relatively stable over most chords you can play from the parent scale. Depending on what chord you play underneath, a particular tone from the pentatonic scale may sound as a chord tone (R-3-5-7) or as an upper extension (9-11-13).

So yes, you can use the 7-note parent scale to derive your harmonies and use the (or another) corresponding pentatonic scale to derive your melodic material. (Yes, I know you asked about minor. All of this applies to minor as well as long as you know how to deal with interchanging chords from the natural/harmonic/melodic scales.)

[Hink]

Before anyone says "have a play" or "listen to other songs and learn from them", remember that Beethoven was deaf but still very much able to compose masterpieces. I'm not saying I'm Beethoven, but music theory should work just as well on paper as it does to the ear. I should be able to write music away from a keyboard, and then take it to the keyboard to play.

Not to put too fine a point on this, but citing Beethoven's deafness as a reason for written theory to stand on its own is bogus. Beethoven may have been deaf but he ultimately didn't need his sense of hearing in order to compose some of the greatest music ever conceived because of one thing: audiation.

That is, the ability to imagine sounds in one's mind. Being able to connect the intellectual aspects of music (theory) with certain sounds and audiate them ispretty much the entire point of studying ear training and sight singing. It's something all of the great composers of the classical tradition could do well. Very well.

This is a great point, I remember reading a book on composition years ago that spoke about how important hearing the music in your mind is and tbh until then I never gave that much thought. I have vivid memories of being very small laying in bed after seeing "The Sound of Music" (my family loved that, I was 5 when it came it out and we saw it a lot) and doing as the song instructed (you know "when you know the notes to sing) to come up with obviously very, very stupid simplistic melodies.

Until I read that book I think I just figured that anyone could hear a tune in their head when in fact that is a huge difference between hearing a tune in your head and being able to work out a tune, melody or what have you in your head. As far as skill wise at this on a scale of one to ten I might be a three, but I have got out of bed many times because I had an idea laying there hearing the tune and going to my studio to try it out.

Dont get me wrong, I never said the end product from me was all that, but it is a useful tool which I wish I had known to nurture long ago. I do not have perfect pitch but my interval recognition is pretty good and I can come up with ideas with an instrument in my hands. Now if I could learn to mix in my mind ..really that is the flip side, I get the idea and I like how the piece works itself out but I get hung up on the timbre and how the part (which typically is guitar) sits in the mix and my guitar tone

Anyhow thanx for bringing up this point

[Nystul]

Beethoven was not deaf as a child but eventually noticed some hearing loss which gradually got much worse over a period of many years. As a gifted child he became a court organist and studied organ and composition under very famous and prestigious musicians of the time. Point being, he did indeed practice, perform, and listen to the music of others as he trained and developed into one of the greatest composers. By the time his hearing had become very bad, he would have a great idea of what his music would sound like based on his past training, but as I understand he stilled tried to find ways to listen and hear the effects he was writing.

[chemicalfan]

Wow, thanks for all the replies! I'm a bit clearer now - I'll use a pentatonic scale for the melodies, and build "regular" chords based on the melody. I think I'll move to using the chords from music I'm familiar with, and improvising over them using the relevant pentatonic scale, see how that goes. Then switch the chords to something more personal. It may not be as creative as cooking it all up in my head like some kind of music god, but meh, if it works for me then it's all good.

Oh, and a shout-out to Spiritos for mentioning Ravenspiral's Guide (in another thread) - it seems amazing and right up my street. I've always struggled with reading music theory and assimilating it properly, but this guide just seems to lay it out in a way that sticks with me a bit. Not that you guys haven't helped me, I'm just a bit dense with these things!

[stringtapper]

By the time his hearing had become very bad, he would have a great idea of what his music would sound like based on his past training, but as I understand he stilled tried to find ways to listen and hear the effects he was writing.

Yes, he had "ear horns" made for him to attempt to amplify sounds and was known to put his head against the piano in order to feel the vibrations. What an unimaginable downer it would be to love music so much and have that happen to you.

[jancivil]

Before anyone says "have a play" or "listen to other songs and learn from them", remember that Beethoven was deaf but still very much able to compose masterpieces. I'm not saying I'm Beethoven, but music theory should work just as well on paper as it does to the ear. I should be able to write music away from a keyboard, and then take it to the keyboard to play.

You're telling a story to yourself in order to justify the comfort zone, <reading some stuff on paper> in preferencce to, in avoidance of <play it and absorb it in some music, apply yourself to the real context>. Music is all about making the ear happy.

Rather than abstractions and words, be into how things sound. How 'minor pentatonic' sounds - to you - along with some chords. Reading, absent experience asks the cart to pull the horse. You can read about the discords and these kind of things and get bogged down if not downright confused. Such as 'blues pentatonic', those notes are really supposed to have some emotion and bite and you could wind up thinking about 'these notes are wrong for that chord' (you're free to form your own opinion on that); your shoes are too tight to dance. There are conventions and if you like those, experience those, find out about it with your ear. The wheel doesn't need reinventing, why isolate yourself, copy things for a while.

Theory happens when people believed some thing worked and they made a note of it. It isn't a recipe book.

[sammy24]

Not to put too fine a point on this, but citing Beethoven's deafness as a reason for written theory to stand on its own is bogus. Beethoven may have been deaf but he ultimately didn't need his sense of hearing in order to compose some of the greatest music ever conceived because of one thing: audiation.

Great post, Stringtapper.

People always seem to be amazed at that Beethoven being deaf thing. Certainly it's irony at its worst and a terrible thing for a composer to go through; but I've always thought to myself, people seem to have absolutely no idea what it takes to be a real composer. In order to be any kind of good composer, much less an all-time great, you have to have a crystal-clear idea of the music in your head. Any famous composer could have continued their work after going deaf; what made Beethoven great was the music he wrote, whether before or after his hearing issues.

These guys can hear all the aspects of the music, from the melody, harmony, rhythms, dynamics, entire orchestrations. I mean, they're not throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. Actually, it would be more impressive for a person without such audiation skills to write a Beethoven symphony (out of sheer luck), than it is that Beethoven could still compose music after he was deaf.

So anyway, I liked how you put it, couldn't have said it better.

[jancivil]

building a whole bluesy song from one scale will sound like crap.

Why? Why can't one restrict themselves to five notes and sound fantastic? Do you feature John Lee Hooker needed a number of *scales* in a thing to get the point across? Who is using a bunch of scales in a 'bluesy song'? What are you saying exactly?

[Nanakai]

building a whole bluesy song from one scale will sound like crap.

Why? Why can't one restrict themselves to five notes and sound fantastic? Do you feature John Lee Hooker needed a number of *scales* in a thing to get the point across? Who is using a bunch of scales in a 'bluesy song'? What are you saying exactly?

The context was *diatonic* scales. Would a blues song derived from a single diatonic scale sound good to you?

[jancivil]

probably not. I do see now, in particular one long post which veers off into seven note scales but I didn't recognize when that became the context. and forgive me for tuning out again.

I don't agree that 'essentially the pentatonic... is a subset of your seven note scale'. the pentatonic in blues practice seems to have arrived from African music where this doesn't seem to be true. It's heard all around the world where it doesn't seem to belong to seven note scales first.

the confluence of harmonies that might be said to belong to 'diatonic' with blues lines does not mean the pentatonic thing you hear is derived from the other thing, or a subset of it. It is its own thing.

[Uncle E]

To add to what's already been presented:

Try minor pentatonic scales over Dominant 7 chords
Try not switching the scale to match the chords
Try add 9 chords
Try a Major 13 chord on the I, a Major 4 chord on the IV, and a Dominant add 9 chord on the V, then play a minor pentatonic scale in the same key over all of it
Try bending so that you're out of key, hold it for a breath, then bend it further until you're back in key (a nice vibrato when you get to the top will work out nicely)
Try playing a solo where all you do is hit the tonic (an Albert Collins-esque fast/wide vibrato will help)
Try making your leads sound exactly like Ray Charles singing Summertime or Nina Simone singing Feeling Good:

[tapper mike]

E you make some valued points.

In the lead section of "Stairway" the progression is Am-G-F-F
Jimmy Page works almost strictly with the A minor blues scale only occasionally playing an F natural note

In "I Wish It Would Rain" Eric Clapton comes in hard using pentatonic licks against some chords and simply sustains the note when the chord changed out of the licks range.

It's not always the major that gets the workout.
In Brian Adams "It's only love" there is no D minor chord expressly played.
The progression is D5(no third) C9, Asus4(no third) Bb and F Yet the solo is played exclusively using the D blues scale and the licks are centric to D minor not the relative major (F)


The relative major to the blues scale is often referred to as the "Country Blues" scale although evident in many styles.

Getting back to EC in a blues context he usually plays hardest against the IV chord maintaining the key/tonic. Most blues players only accommodate playing the changes during the turnaround as he does. In a Rock content such as "Bad Love" when playing a "power riff" he'll often start a phrase using a blues/pentatonic phrase and cap it with a mixolydian one.

To fully embrace the concept of the blues scale it's not enough to simply play the scale ad nauseum but to build your chops.