How do you properly compose with scales?

[cj31387]

1) I found a site that shows you what scales you can play over given chords. But it listed about 10 scales that all together from what it looks like has every single note you can play? But that doesn't makes sense, I might as well just make a chord progression then and randomly place a bunch of notes. I've never really understood how to compose with scales. If I don't use EVERY note from the list that sight gave me. Do I then only use 1 scale out of the list, and stick to that scale all the way through the song (using only that scales notes)? I need some help on where to start composing with scales because I don't really understand how you do it.

2) Are scales mainly used to get a certain emotion? Or are they formulas, if so what are their rules in composing?

[deastman]

I think you're confusing scales with keys- two distinct but related concepts. But these are only two parts out of the overall study of music theory. I would recommend that you pick up a basic music theory book and establish a good solid basis of understanding.

More to your specific question, a lot of simple songs, including most pop music, will only use 7 of the 12 available notes for the entire length of the composition. The most obvious example of this is the C Major scale, which uses only the white notes of the piano keyboard.

[Spiritos]

I don't think your approach should be to compose through scales or keys.
You'll utilise them when composing...

Scales and keys have their very own feel, colour and emotion. Also you can transpose within a song to achieve certain effects.

[Nanakai]

1) I found a site that shows you what scales you can play over given chords. But it listed about 10 scales that all together from what it looks like has every single note you can play? But that doesn't makes sense, I might as well just make a chord progression then and randomly place a bunch of notes. I've never really understood how to compose with scales. If I don't use EVERY note from the list that sight gave me. Do I then only use 1 scale out of the list, and stick to that scale all the way through the song (using only that scales notes)? I need some help on where to start composing with scales because I don't really understand how you do it.

2) Are scales mainly used to get a certain emotion? Or are they formulas, if so what are their rules in composing?

You are going about this the wrong way, but maybe you could post a link to the site you found and the good folks here will clear up what you're seeing.

[Harry_HH]

1) I found a site that shows you what scales you can play over given chords. But it listed about 10 scales that all together from what it looks like has every single note you can play? But that doesn't makes sense, I might as well just make a chord progression then and randomly place a bunch of notes. I've never really understood how to compose with scales. If I don't use EVERY note from the list that sight gave me. Do I then only use 1 scale out of the list, and stick to that scale all the way through the song (using only that scales notes)? I need some help on where to start composing with scales because I don't really understand how you do it.

2) Are scales mainly used to get a certain emotion? Or are they formulas, if so what are their rules in composing?

Although I second the point that reading some basic music theory is fundamental and most recommended, you are on the right track by assuming that scales are for creating emotions.

The "simplistic" basic rule, when talking about the chords and scales (and the melody), is that you create the harmony (i.e. the chords) according to you melody in the way that the chords support the melody (i.e. chords have same notes than your melody, when the melody moves, your supporting harmony moves).
How are the melody and scales related to each other? The whole idea of the scales is based on the idea of the classic (western) concept, where you have tonal basis (which gives you the centrum of your melody and represents the base note of the scale of your melody), rule of intervals and idea of 12 notes in your scale. Where your tonal basis is in your melody, is one of the first things to define which may help you when you are composing/harmonizing. However, remember that you can "pin" the same melody to several different scales, but most often the scale behing you melody is obvious. (See the "big picture" later, you can also modulate, e.g. change the tonal basis inside your song). Many excellent composers never learned the scales or music theory, despite this they operated according to this theory (most famous example, I think, is Lennon-McCartney, their music is really sophisticated if you brake down it and analyze it according to the theory of music). This means: what sounds good, most often is good.
The before rule is the sceleton: then you can "color" your melody/scale/chords by sharpening and diminishing (temporarily) ANY note. This means that you "can" play any note over any chord (without beeing "wrong") - how it sounds, depends on the big picture of your composition, what is the progression before and after this move, what kind of effect and emotion you seek. Again: what sounds good is good (or if its not, you are either unmusical or deaf).
The above is about western music - if you go e.g. to Indian ragas or other cultures, the idea what sounds good and what are the rules may change. Harry

[coquillo]

1)I've never really understood how to compose with scales.

2) Are scales mainly used to get a certain emotion? Or are they formulas, if so what are their rules in composing?

Here's my quick and dirty take on it.

Select your scale (we'll use C major/Ionian Mode (the white notes))

C D E F G A B

Build 7th chords on each tonic note (use every other note)

CEGB The I chord
DFAC ii
EGBD iii
FACE IV
GBDF V
ACEG vi
BDFA vii

Select your chord progression (we'll use the old three chord trick I IV V) so in this case C,F and G.

CEGB I
FACE IV
GABD V


A ii V I progression gives us

DFAC ii
GABD V
CEGB I


These progressions work because of the notes the adjacent chords share.


To get a Dorian minor version, start on D

DFAC i
EGBD ii
FACE III
GBDF IV
ACEG v
BDFA vii
CEGB VII


Our I IV V becomes i IV v, i.e.

DFAC
BGDF
ACEG

E&OE

It's music, play with it.

[Tricky-Loops]

I don't know how you could make chord progressions without a scale?

Usually my approach is to find a certain mode, then the appropriate key, and with this scale (of notes) I can make the chords and chord progressions.

In my approach I first compose the rhythm, then the melody, and then I harmonize it - maybe a bit more scientific than simply playing around with the keyboard, but it helps me...

[cj31387]

I don't know how you could make chord progressions without a scale?

Usually my approach is to find a certain mode, then the appropriate key, and with this scale (of notes) I can make the chords and chord progressions.

In my approach I first compose the rhythm, then the melody, and then I harmonize it - maybe a bit more scientific than simply playing around with the keyboard, but it helps me...

Yeah I would like to know about that. I don't know how to use a scale with a chord progression or period. I have always just played notes together that sound good.

[coquillo]

Yeah I would like to know about that. I don't know how to use a scale with a chord progression or period.

I just spelled it out. Which bit don't you get?

[Spiritos]

I can't emphasize enough that you don't ever 'compose' with scales or keys.
You utilise them when you have your basic composition that always start with either of 2 things (melody wise):

a. Chord Progression or
b. Melody

By melody I mean having something like a tune that you can whistle amd a chord progression speaks for itself.

Now let's say you have a chord progression and you want to add a tune (melody)
The chord progression will be in a certain key and upon that key you can play certain notes of a scale. You can even change scales within that tune as -you already discovered- multilple scales can work within a certain key.

You have to think of it that every scale and every key has a certain colour or mood to it. So by choosing to apply a certain scale you can choose the mood. Same as you choose a minor or a major key to play in. Major sounds happy. minor sounds sad.

As someone else already mentioned it can be helpfull to know something about musictheory but then it is necessary to learn the very fundamentals. I see a lot of people drown in having jigsaw pieces of theory then trying to work with that and it's frustrating cause it makes you ask the wrong questions and stops you in your creative process.

So either read up on some basic theory or an online course (YouTube) or just make music. Bothering yourself with questions like 'I want to compose with scales' is useless. You should rather ask yourself 'I want to learn about music theory'. Alternatively you can play (assuming you have a keyboard) certain scales in certain keys that you find on that site and play each of them at least a 100 times a day. I'll guarantee you that within one or two weeks you start to develop an ear for the different moods and colours and you will intuitively start learning about using theory without crushing the dry theory itself (avant la lettre).

The examples coquillo gave you probably is melting your brain because you lack the frame of reference. If you want to undertsand that learn about basic music theory. There's the 'Ravenspiral Guide' floating for free on the web that has a very decent explanation from beginner to intermediate level. Maybe that will be of help as well.

Good luck!

[cj31387]

Yeah I would like to know about that. I don't know how to use a scale with a chord progression or period.

I just spelled it out. Which bit don't you get?

Well I've had this assumption that scales are formulas thus have certain set of rules. Even to the extent that I thought maybe there are common sequences of the degrees of the scales that always sound good. But apparently you just play a scale in any order until you find something that sounds good, which goes back to what I've always been doing. Playing something until it sounds good. Spiritos gets where I'm coming from. I really do just need to learn music theory again. I took a short online class from my community college for music theory but I didn't retain much. That was a couple years ago. I've since then found this teaching http://www.howtoplaypiano.ca/?page_id=108 . I started it and stopped for a bit. But I now do have some notation reading skills memorized, but Music Theory is really boring when you already know how to make songs by ear, but I need to suck it up and just learn it.

[Tricky-Loops]

Today I've found this:

http://www.hooktheory.com

I haven't read the book (and I'm not sure if I buy it because I already know quite much theory) but I'm fascinated that they have a lot of examples of song melodies & chords which you could study and draw your own conclusions which melodies (what you seem to mean with "combinations of scale degrees") & chord progressions sound the best...

[cj31387]

hmm wow I checked that site like 5 months ago all they had was like 1 blog post. They have a book now? Cool Thanks.

[Juxtpose]

Scales are the building blocks of music, chords are built up from them

[tapper mike]

There are no rules there are only guidelines. However the methodologies and the means to the ends would boggle the mind in the level of vastness they present. To study only one direct method and assume that it's the only one available would be deny the others and assume that they don't exist.


If you really want to get a handle on writing melodies without harmonization.
First study scales modes and scalar patterns. Because those open the door. Then study the melodies that others have written not only to develop the mechanical physical muscle memory that can only be achieved by performance but to develop technique and expressive qualities. Then take those same melodic lines and improvise with them. Changing durations of notes changing mode and key, regrouping the notes.