Which plugins add unwanted watermarks to audio?

[flakes2]

as a customer i don't care about the watermark, as long as i am not able to find anything that would have negative effect on the audio quality. I was not able to measure or detect anything and so far noone else has been able to proof that it would have a negative effect. As long as you're not able to proof anything negative you should just shut up.

No one who is Upset in this thread did say that he is a customer. People who mentioned that they are customers did not care about it, because they did not notice anything negative. Or did i miss something?

Imho this thread is just another witchhunt by the same hand full of thieves who are slowly getting paranoid towards the devs because they 'got a lot of copy protection trouble'.

What HAS negative effect on the audio qulality is mp3 encoding and compressors.
What HAS negative effect on privacy is google, cellphones, facebook and posting within a public forum.

[fluffy_little_something]

I don't understand the big deal about this. It's not affecting your music. More severe manipulations of audio are a routine part of "analog modeling" plugins and the like. Who cares whether or not some stupid phase shift or something identifies a particular synth? If you can't hear it and it doesn't hurt anything, it isn't affecting your music. It's the hypochondriac worrying that affects your music more than any watermark.

I totally disagree. It is a matter of principal. Whether or not it can be heard is pretty irrelevant to me. It is nobody's business which plugins I use in my music. As I said earlier it might even be a kind of secret with known artists.
Analog modeling? Whatever it does, I can hear it and I know I am using it, thus it is my responsibility. A big difference.

[fluffy_little_something]

as a customer i don't care about the watermark, as long as i am not able to find anything that would have negative effect on the audio quality. I was not able to measure or detect anything and so far noone else has been able to proof that it would have a negative effect. As long as you're not able to proof anything negative you should just shut up.

No one who is Upset in this thread did say that he is a customer. People who mentioned that they are customers did not care about it, because they did not notice anything negative. Or did i miss something?

Imho this thread is just another witchhunt by the same hand full of thieves who are slowly getting paranoid towards the devs because they 'got a lot of copy protection trouble'.

What HAS negative effect on the audio qulality is mp3 encoding and compressors.
What HAS negative effect on privacy is google, cellphones, facebook and posting within a public forum.

This too is total nonsense. People should shut up? You are in no position to tell anyone to shut up.
It is irrelevant whether or not it affects the sound.

Your assumption that people who are against watermarking AUDIO are pirates is as absurd as assuming people who are against the NSA reading their communications are criminals.

I don't use any pirated software and I think it is absolutely OK for developers to include protection against piracy. But only protection mechanisms for their software as such, not for what is made using that software. If they are too stupid to protect their software as such without interfering in people's music, it is their own fault. There are more than enough methods out there without using audio watermarking.

[flakes2]

You started this thread just to initiate another whichhunt towards the devs. I am wondering why you hate them so much. If you don't like their stuff simply don't use it. Or are you so angry because you had 'copy protection trouble'? Obviously you do not seem to own one of their products. At least not legally.

When you started this thread it was clear to you that you would open another can of worms. It's a pity that the kvr mods have to deal with ugly trolls like you on SUNDAY.

Maybe you should just move on to another forum like audioz. There you can find more detailed info who you can bypass protection schemes.

[osiris]

It's very suspicious to me that every time Tone2 announces a new product one of these threads pop up. Working for a competing company, maybe?

[flakes2]

Still waiting for your proof that it has a negative effect on the audio quaility...

[flakes2]

[quote="osiris"]It's very suspicious to me that every time Tone2 announces a new product one of these threads pop up. Working for a competing company, maybe?[/quote]

Some trolls indeed seem to be sock puppets by competing companies. One day we'll find out who's behind them. This is very poor marketing.
What's also intersting is that this effect seems to be limited to kvr, where many competing developers have their forum.

[xNiMiNx]

Still waiting for your proof that it has a negative effect on the audio quaility...

To quote ATW1's (seller of watermarking tool) website:

"For the sake of truth it should be noted that (like with any other real world technology) there are examples of very specific audio samples that may reveal some watermarking artifacts compared to original non-watermarked audio, however in these specific cases such effects are rather minor and may be noticeable only to experienced listener."

I have no problem with watermarks, but i do have questions in reguards to how audible it will become in the future when it is the normal, when you have watermarks performed before, during, after production, and then on things like internet radio.

[osiris]

I guess it's like if you don't want watermarked audio boycott ITunes....
(now THAT'S watermarked audio)
It's the devs prerogative to copy protect their stuff as they see fit. Urs has made the 'infamous' melting GUI, and occasionally you get someone come on here and say -' I got the new Zebra but the controls won't work...'
So, LOL
If you don't like it, don't use it.
Or Kontakt, or Massive, or Omnisphere, or Nexus, for that matter.

[flakes2]

Exactly. If you don't like it - don't use it.

I just checked the profiles of some of the trolls. It seem to be always the same people who bash certain companies. At the same time they advertize products for other companies.

[murnau]

i work for murnau music industries. we suck the blood out of our customers.

[Tricky-Loops]

At least Tone2 admits on their homepage (under the point "copy protection") that they use watermarks, so everybody can decide to buy it or not to buy it.

They won't change it because of a few KVR people. If you're against it, better make a poll to see how many people wouldn't buy plugins with watermarks. If they see how many sales they could have without it, they could change their copy protection.

Personally I'm not a fan of watermarking. Imagine every plugin producer used watermarks, in the end I would have up to 50 watermarks in every song. That may introduce interactions between the respective watermarks that indeed are influencing the audio quality...

[robotmonkey]

we should rename this thread which might soon be closed to

"which plugins can i pirate and on which ones should i watch out?".
or
"poor paranoid pirates peeing their pants"
or
"just another shitstorm from the same pissed-off thieves"

If you care so much about privacy, why:
- do you post in a public forum?
- use google?
- use facebook?
- use a cellphone?

The NSA is watching you... make sure that you take a look under your bed before you go to sleep!

LOL. What a daft statement. I just love that there is always at least one sucker who jumps into every reasonable discussion about CP measures on KVR and accuses everyone of being thieves and dirty pirates.

If some devs would come up with a CP measure that would require a dongle stuck up your @ss you would probably be first to volunteer.

[fluffy_little_something]

You started this thread just to initiate another whichhunt towards the devs. I am wondering why you hate them so much. If you don't like their stuff simply don't use it. Or are you so angry because you had 'copy protection trouble'? Obviously you do not seem to own one of their products. At least not legally.

When you started this thread it was clear to you that you would open another can of worms. It's a pity that the kvr mods have to deal with ugly trolls like you on SUNDAY.

Maybe you should just move on to another forum like audioz. There you can find more detailed info who you can bypass protection schemes.

Still waiting for your proof that it has a negative effect on the audio quaility...

Some trolls indeed seem to be sock puppets by competing companies. One day we'll find out who's behind them. This is very poor marketing.
What's also intersting is that this effect seems to be limited to kvr, where many competing developers have their forum.


Exactly. If you don't like it - don't use it.



I just checked the profiles of some of the trolls. It seem to be always the same people who bash certain companies. At the same time they advertize products for other companies.

You are totally missing the point. It is not a witch hunt at all. I am all for transparency. All I want to know is which developers use such audio watermarking so that people can decide not to use their plugins. It is like with GM food. If I don't want to eat it, I need to know first which products it is included in.

I can't imagine Tone2 is the only developer who use it. But it seems they are the most infamous one, which is not my fault, though. Nor do I care about that company in a positive or negative way. I think Saurus is nice, not great, but nice and solid. But I must admit that watermarking alone would be enough of a reason not to buy it, even if it did not have any other weaknesses.

Now, I don't think any developer using such techniques potential customers don't like can complain about lost business.

I am not working for any company, which one would that be? I use mainly freeware and ancient stuff that does not need any marketing as hardly anyone would use it anyway.

It's very suspicious to me that every time Tone2 announces a new product one of these threads pop up. Working for a competing company, maybe?

You are taking Tone2 too seriously, the world does not revolve around a new Tone2 synth. This is not a Tone2 thread, but a general thread on audio watermarking. If you can't distinguish the two, it is not my fault.

[xNiMiNx]

...come up with a CP measure that would require a dongle stuck up your @ss...

Done!