i love that point in the day when i close my browser and disconnect. suddenly, i can open folders and applications without decomposing. i was a fool to ever upgrade from ie6.
today's entry would have images of kick wavs exhibiting the variety of contours, had i prepped it. well, i don't know what i could say about them as my observations may be below other peoples' consideration, but hot dang, that's what i've been thinking about for the last week.
atm there are seven kick algorithms. most are what i will call inspired by classics, then improved. i decided to keep the unique features of each instead of eg. unifying the pitch and decay range parameters, so that, more or less, if the knob is in the center position, it is in the "emulative" spot (yes i am using quotes for that).
so that's one of the fun challenges.. for each model, each parameter needs a "meaningful" range, curve and center. also, these sets have to relate to each other to some degree.
say you switch from a 606 model to an 808 model.. the 606 kick default is ~10Hz higher and 808s have relatively long decays for an analog kick. so how to fit a curve with a center 10Hz higher but make it have about the same range and responsivity... this is the fun.
feeling pretty good about the project.. my ears have survived the weight of it. yesterday i applied a modulation i discovered during this process to a model with an 808 style pulse attack and got something i liked more than other techniques i intended to use..
i relly don't relish giving out too much audio before this project is completed - i want you to twist the knob and see that there is a range of sounds, not like a few incident positions on the dial. i want the instrument to be somewhat novel and exciting when first encountered.
but today you get samples from model 7 in development.
http://www.xoxos.net/temp/kickm7.zip
split that into two algorithms, one clean and one more 'aggressive' with clipping and extra hype added in there.
bong vst
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 12367 posts since 30 Apr, 2002 from i might peeramid
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.
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- KVRAF
- 3506 posts since 27 Dec, 2002 from North East England
Nice weighty sounds. Seems very flexible. I've been checking out a few videos of the DR110 in action because of this thread and a few of your example kicks seem to have that nice clicky transient that the DR110 seems to have, mixed up with a bit of distorted 808/909 vibes. Tres cool!
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- KVRian
- 1157 posts since 9 Apr, 2012
Very nice rurik.xoxos wrote:...atm there are seven kick algorithms. most are what i will call inspired by classics, then improved. i decided to keep the unique features of each instead of eg. unifying the pitch and decay range parameters, so that, more or less, if the knob is in the center position, it is in the "emulative" spot (yes i am using quotes for that).
so that's one of the fun challenges.. for each model, each parameter needs a "meaningful" range, curve and center. also, these sets have to relate to each other to some degree.
...
They sound pretty good to my ears but 71 is my favourite.
Does it mean that we have 7 different improved kick algos to choose from? Only for the kickdrum? Damn that's a lot. Or are they for "testing purpose only" right now and you haven't decided yet which one to implement.
I really like the idea of the emulative spot. That's an small but important feature imho. Especially if people like me don't have access to a hw unit of that kind of kick. Don't get me wrong, if it sounds good it sounds good. But it's even better if you know what the original one sounds like (or almost).
Regards
Sebastian
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 12367 posts since 30 Apr, 2002 from i might peeramid
samples are all model 7, though not necessarily at the point of completion.
also put the 606 style 'spike' transient on that osc, or something like it. funny to me how it sounds novel, when it's two common characteritics combined.
so happy with that shaping function i'm redoing the relevant toms and snares.
i'm not sure how to market the consideration of emulation yet - i set out to build algorithms that avail the characteristics of the classics (instead of, eg. something nonreferential like the mass-spring vst) because they are our context. "accurate" emulation is avoidable because of IP, and, because i don't want to be locked into debates about the degree of accuracy.
you can put a sine and some noise together and tell ppl it's an 808 snare, and it may sound pretty close to most people. someone has always got a bigger magnifying glass, and, as a developer in the paradigm of magnifying glasses, making that claim would be a pretentious waste of time, even if from some person's perspective the sounds were identical.
browsing kick samples is an excellent way imo of observing leading perception. if you go through them in series, you'll hear one with a brighter attack, but if you go through them backwards, it may not have the same presence. having spent the last two and a half months doing this and the few months before that with a percussion sampler, my perception of the differences between two sounds in this category may be somewhat exaggerated from the norm. so, i could run around saying "my vst doesn't sound anything like them" when to others it may.
it's one of those things i just don't want any part of. one anticipates proceeding with a minimum of claims that may culture any expectations. like the samples above.. the algo is 808/909 inspired, but i think i'd rather everyone agree it sounds like bong rather than tout it as a replacement for either source.
also put the 606 style 'spike' transient on that osc, or something like it. funny to me how it sounds novel, when it's two common characteritics combined.
so happy with that shaping function i'm redoing the relevant toms and snares.
i'm not sure how to market the consideration of emulation yet - i set out to build algorithms that avail the characteristics of the classics (instead of, eg. something nonreferential like the mass-spring vst) because they are our context. "accurate" emulation is avoidable because of IP, and, because i don't want to be locked into debates about the degree of accuracy.
you can put a sine and some noise together and tell ppl it's an 808 snare, and it may sound pretty close to most people. someone has always got a bigger magnifying glass, and, as a developer in the paradigm of magnifying glasses, making that claim would be a pretentious waste of time, even if from some person's perspective the sounds were identical.
browsing kick samples is an excellent way imo of observing leading perception. if you go through them in series, you'll hear one with a brighter attack, but if you go through them backwards, it may not have the same presence. having spent the last two and a half months doing this and the few months before that with a percussion sampler, my perception of the differences between two sounds in this category may be somewhat exaggerated from the norm. so, i could run around saying "my vst doesn't sound anything like them" when to others it may.
it's one of those things i just don't want any part of. one anticipates proceeding with a minimum of claims that may culture any expectations. like the samples above.. the algo is 808/909 inspired, but i think i'd rather everyone agree it sounds like bong rather than tout it as a replacement for either source.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.
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- KVRian
- 1157 posts since 9 Apr, 2012
xoxos wrote:so happy with that shaping function i'm redoing the relevant toms and snares.
Great to hear that. Always nice when a dev improves something on his own what he likes.
Was it your synthpack where you improved your ADSR envelopes with the curve option below it? And later then ADZE with the stunning convex/concave/linear multi 2 knob curve mode thingy? That is so f****n' awesome and so intuitive and you get your results pretty fast with that. But I guess the above mentioned shaping function has nothing to do with that...
Good point. And chances are high that folks are complaining that it does not sound like "the real deal" when it comes to emulation. Happened nearly everytime. Always funny when developer prais their stuff as such AND mention something like "even better than the original".xoxos wrote:i'm not sure how to market the consideration of emulation yet - i set out to build algorithms that avail the characteristics of the classics (instead of, eg. something nonreferential like the mass-spring vst) because they are our context. "accurate" emulation is avoidable because of IP, and, because i don't want to be locked into debates about the degree of accuracy.
you can put a sine and some noise together and tell ppl it's an 808 snare, and it may sound pretty close to most people. someone has always got a bigger magnifying glass, and, as a developer in the paradigm of magnifying glasses, making that claim would be a pretentious waste of time, even if from some person's perspective the sounds were identical.
It's more "inspired and improved" than "copied and pasted" (I know, it's not that easy). I am not an expert in (vintage) drum machines though I know the usual suspects like 808 & 909, Linn & Simmons. And all of them sound different. Some of them sound better (or are more suited towards a specific music style)...long live the 909
) and others not but I think every device has it's own characteristics ( eg 909 hats).Understand your concerns about IP. It's a tough terrain today for a (independent) software developer.
Damn, I think this device will be bangin'...*cough*... bongin' ! And yes, I would pay for that.
One question: will there be an inbuilt 16 step seq (up to 64 perhaps) with some nice timing issues? When I read Anton's thread about his 303 VST he said that it's not only the oscillator section but also the sequencer that makes it sound more like a real 303. And I think I have heard that eg. the 808 has it's own timing "issues". Would be nice to hear what you think about that topic (seq relevant for an "emulated" device).
Regards
Sebastian
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- KVRist
- 322 posts since 2 Jul, 2012 from Castanet, Aveyron, France
Gosh even if it is drumsynth fest since a few weeks/month, BONG is the only one I am actualy waiting for! This thread is the best "marketing moove" I have seen in years: not thinking marketing, getting potentialy interested people curious, sharing experiments, knowledge, what else could you want? Oh yeah, the plugin.
Thank you Rurik!
Thank you Rurik!
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- KVRist
- 455 posts since 31 May, 2013 from Space is the Place
I'm excited, I'm sure this will be greatfeeling pretty good about the project..
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 12367 posts since 30 Apr, 2002 from i might peeramid
it's true! the others are released alreadytanabarbier wrote:the only one I am actualy waiting for!
i'll release this one before doing the manual and stuff.re: timing issues, as a veteran of fsk tape striping i encountered this topic on forums like dancetech in the 90s, where it was often recommended for making beats more awesome. kilo used to say, move the hats slightly ahead of the beat. tonal/oscillator voices often have a 1ms or so pulse which damps previous oscillation and reinitialises it. so, i'm expecting that the sampled 909 hats perhaps begin earlier for this reason when triggered on the same click as a kick or snare. unsupported conjecture (would be easy to verify by looking at sampled rhythms instead of single hits).
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 12367 posts since 30 Apr, 2002 from i might peeramid
adapted the last osc algorithm to tom and snare. on the toms it complements the other multi-osc algorithm nicely. think i posted some samples from the other one say a month ago.
some gratuitously toney samples and a more practical set -
http://www.xoxos.net/temp/tomm6.wav
http://www.xoxos.net/temp/tomm62.wav
by the time i recorded the snare adaptation egs. my ears were saturated with tonality so these are all very fast, not much to show off really, but if i post samples it seems like i'm your friend huh.
http://www.xoxos.net/temp/xsnarem7.zip
most params on bong are fairly clamped to "sensible" ranges.. of course generally wider than the famous boxes but not extreme.. eg. you can't make a snare with a 5 second tonal decay. most sounds can, however, be made extremely short.
the extreme exception is the snare snappy filter. i forget the exact range but it's something like 200Hz to 16kHz, which is far off conventional snappy range, to my ears it works for some genres. obviously i anticipate some people finding the range puzzling. several other params still have a bit of "stupid" in the range or combination of ranges, eg. one of the kick models has a very openly ranged pitch envelope (slow and low or high and fast work, high and slow doesn't hit bass freqs), just so that that's in there.
some gratuitously toney samples and a more practical set -
http://www.xoxos.net/temp/tomm6.wav
http://www.xoxos.net/temp/tomm62.wav
by the time i recorded the snare adaptation egs. my ears were saturated with tonality so these are all very fast, not much to show off really, but if i post samples it seems like i'm your friend huh.
http://www.xoxos.net/temp/xsnarem7.zip
most params on bong are fairly clamped to "sensible" ranges.. of course generally wider than the famous boxes but not extreme.. eg. you can't make a snare with a 5 second tonal decay. most sounds can, however, be made extremely short.
the extreme exception is the snare snappy filter. i forget the exact range but it's something like 200Hz to 16kHz, which is far off conventional snappy range, to my ears it works for some genres. obviously i anticipate some people finding the range puzzling. several other params still have a bit of "stupid" in the range or combination of ranges, eg. one of the kick models has a very openly ranged pitch envelope (slow and low or high and fast work, high and slow doesn't hit bass freqs), just so that that's in there.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 12367 posts since 30 Apr, 2002 from i might peeramid
tho the samples of that snare model are fairly bland the addition was satisfying because the waveforms are the more chaotic. most of the "symmetrical" patterning in the above is due to the pitch ratio.. so, concerning the normal sounding samples, and the normal looking waveform, i'm telling you at some point i was thinking it looked nice.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.
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maxxxter maxxxter https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1
DELETED
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 12367 posts since 30 Apr, 2002 from i might peeramid
the sound engine part seems to be complete, the gui is taking it's time.
thread views have been at the more realistic < 100 for the last two days instead of the entirely fictional hundreds, so good for that.
recorded some hat samples, thought, naah, it can wait
useless banter.. had been thinking to do the gui in maroon and white as my shinken are these colours. dismayed to see the scheme used by one of the popular drum vst. considering blue from the logo design (blues = overused) and an orangey puke sienna. greens are overlooked and red makes monkeys tired. grays, for some reason, my display insists on f**king up when it renders by dithering pixels so it's impossible to make hard lines.
and here's your entertaining saucy attitude capsule toying with the brink of negativity watch carefully: liked the third knob design, but had to reduce size, after spending three hours putting miniscule rotating highlights on it. no clue how to squeeze a velocity trimmer under such a stunningly rendered graphic. i don't know why all the big name companies are so entirely irreverent about aliasing on their guis. my advice to upcoming developers is, if you want your products to look like the ones people "want" to buy, do your graphics big, then reduce them arbitrarily, so the fonts don't fall on pixels and are hard to read, then you'll look like the big names.
if you want to look like an indy developer, discretise your pixels. you're not funded for anything less than precision. being imprecise speaks of the lavish upper class.
i'm thinking, black knob white background, smaller velocity trimmer underneath in white with black indicator to be less visually overt. so, next is attempt #4 to make that a reality within about 19 pixels.
exciting stuff, citizens.
thread views have been at the more realistic < 100 for the last two days instead of the entirely fictional hundreds, so good for that.
recorded some hat samples, thought, naah, it can wait
useless banter.. had been thinking to do the gui in maroon and white as my shinken are these colours. dismayed to see the scheme used by one of the popular drum vst. considering blue from the logo design (blues = overused) and an orangey puke sienna. greens are overlooked and red makes monkeys tired. grays, for some reason, my display insists on f**king up when it renders by dithering pixels so it's impossible to make hard lines.
and here's your entertaining saucy attitude capsule toying with the brink of negativity watch carefully: liked the third knob design, but had to reduce size, after spending three hours putting miniscule rotating highlights on it. no clue how to squeeze a velocity trimmer under such a stunningly rendered graphic. i don't know why all the big name companies are so entirely irreverent about aliasing on their guis. my advice to upcoming developers is, if you want your products to look like the ones people "want" to buy, do your graphics big, then reduce them arbitrarily, so the fonts don't fall on pixels and are hard to read, then you'll look like the big names.
if you want to look like an indy developer, discretise your pixels. you're not funded for anything less than precision. being imprecise speaks of the lavish upper class.
i'm thinking, black knob white background, smaller velocity trimmer underneath in white with black indicator to be less visually overt. so, next is attempt #4 to make that a reality within about 19 pixels.
exciting stuff, citizens.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.
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- KVRAF
- 3506 posts since 27 Dec, 2002 from North East England
Hooray! Exciting stuff indeed. I'm one of the least visually/spatially acute people you'll likely meet, but for what it's worth I really like the GUIs of Radian and Modal. Both very simple and readable but slick with it. Adze also does a great job of packing so many parameters into the space available without seeming messy. Hope the black knob/white background plan is fruitful.xoxos wrote:the sound engine part seems to be complete, the gui is taking it's time.
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 12367 posts since 30 Apr, 2002 from i might peeramid
"Plug it. Unplug it."
note that due to the magic of graphical editing, only one of the pan centering LEDs is lit.
do not fear, "release" works the opposite way from generic implementation - increasing the decay rate at gate release, it's nice with sustained snares and claps and long 808 style kicks.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.
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- KVRAF
- 3506 posts since 27 Dec, 2002 from North East England
Great to get a peek at this.
I'm rubbish at visual design, but maybe it would look a little cleaner if each other row was a very slightly different colour (e.g. white and cream alternating) to emphasise that each row is an entirely separate unit, as it kind of has the look of one huge ultra complex unit at first glance. (edit: actually, I've just been staring at the GUI while trying to visualise that and I've realised why I'm not a designer)
It looks like a lot of work has gone into lining up controls with similar outcomes vertically. Quite a feat given how much the controls on each row can vary.
Having said all that, I don't really care too much about the GUI. I just want it in my sequencer.
I'm rubbish at visual design, but maybe it would look a little cleaner if each other row was a very slightly different colour (e.g. white and cream alternating) to emphasise that each row is an entirely separate unit, as it kind of has the look of one huge ultra complex unit at first glance. (edit: actually, I've just been staring at the GUI while trying to visualise that and I've realised why I'm not a designer)
It looks like a lot of work has gone into lining up controls with similar outcomes vertically. Quite a feat given how much the controls on each row can vary.
Having said all that, I don't really care too much about the GUI. I just want it in my sequencer.