Clipping vs. Limiting
-
- KVRAF
- 1758 posts since 15 Mar, 2013 from Germany
@Tricky: ah that is what you mean by digital saturation. A saturation algo that only introduces the coloring/distortion but leaves the dynamics untouched. Yeah, why not, its a digital world
-
- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
Actually, brickwall limiters (like Pro-L) and clippers (given they have an input and output gain control & attack and release controls) are quite similar. Pro-L additionally has 4 different limiting algorithms...djanthonyw wrote:How does Pro-L function as a clipper compared to a dedicated clipper? Also, what dedicated clipper options are there in AU format besides Stillwell's and IK's?
I'm a big fan of ClipShifter by LVC Audio which is also available as AU for OSX - it can be used as hard clipper as well as soft clipper!
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2807 posts since 8 Sep, 2009
Just an observation (without taking part in the tech-debate): if you have your hands on the MMulBndSaturator load the preset "JG-Loudness-War +8.0db-Clip1", turn the wetness of Band 1 to 100% and start to lower the threshold.
If - while looking at the meter - the result is not a behaviour ordinary people face with limiters I must be completely confused.
If - while looking at the meter - the result is not a behaviour ordinary people face with limiters I must be completely confused.
-
- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
If there is a limiter included for the different bands, why doesn't Vojtech write it in the description? It's only written in the manual...elassi wrote:Just an observation (without taking part in the tech-debate): if you have your hands on the MMulBndSaturator load the preset "JG-Loudness-War +8.0db-Clip1", turn the wetness of Band 1 to 100% and start to lower the threshold.
If - while looking at the meter - the result is not a behaviour ordinary people face with limiters I must be completely confused.
I'm about to get absolutely confused about the term "saturation" because every saturation plugin that I've seen has different features, some have additional limiters, or compressors, or clippers, then different algorithms...
The question is if saturation ALWAYS means (analog) TAPE saturation (which would be soft-clipping)? Or are there different views about saturation?
Why do I need a limiter, a clipper and a saturator? Why isn't there a plugin which does everything?
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2807 posts since 8 Sep, 2009
I'm sorry to extend the question-show but at this point I recall that Vojtech sports a saturation module to almost all (well, it seems so) plugins.
Guess we're all awaiting the master himself to speak to the public.
Guess we're all awaiting the master himself to speak to the public.
-
- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
Here is a great article about saturation in a wider sense:elassi wrote:I'm sorry to extend the question-show but at this point I recall that Vojtech sports a saturation module to almost all (well, it seems so) plugins.
Guess we're all awaiting the master himself to speak to the public.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb10/a ... warmth.htm
Nevertheless, in the MFilter is an "integrated tube saturation", and I cannot figure out what's the difference (in sound!) between tube and tape saturation and what is MMultiBandSaturator - tape or tube saturation?
Where's Master Vojtech?
-
- KVRAF
- 1794 posts since 9 Apr, 2011
Saturation is distortion, which clips. It may be more complicated than simple clipping, but it clips as a byproduct. As such, it reduces dynamic range (which is why guitars can get better sustain at high gain, for example).
"musician."
http://soundcloud.com/nine-of-kings
http://soundcloud.com/nine-of-kings
-
- KVRAF
- 1924 posts since 15 Oct, 2008 from Germany
Basically, different types of saturation create different (even and/or odd) harmonics. Try to run a simple sine wave through different saturation algorithms and see how harmonics are added (using e.g. MAnalyzer). Soundwise... well, in the end it's a matter of taste and suitability for a given case I suppose.Tricky-Loops wrote: Nevertheless, in the MFilter is an "integrated tube saturation", and I cannot figure out what's the difference (in sound!) between tube and tape saturation and what is MMultiBandSaturator - tape or tube saturation?
-
MeldaProduction MeldaProduction https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=176122 - KVRAF
- 14339 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic
Nice, an interesting debate has been started .
So...
Saturator is basically a distortion with clipping, but that's kind of misleading. The idea is that a saturator generates only a very small amount of higher harmonics as opposed to distortion, which is used to generate lots of them and so the algorithms are usually slightly different.
Digital clipping is known for generating only odd harmonics (when you put a sine 100Hz into it, it generates 300Hz, 500Hz...) - is that bad? Many people say so, I don't think it's a general rule though. But one thing is true - analog components generate also odd harmonics (200Hz, 400Hz...), so they also sound different and many people agree this sounds better. Who knows, I don't think most people would hear a difference, but we audiophiles eventually do
, a little .
Anyway saturation is therefore the process before digital clipping, which is designed to provide these "analog" features before the digital clipping takes place.
To check a great saturator, it is MMultiBandSaturator.
Limiters were originally designed to remove peaks with minimum distortion (thus transparency). This is needed if you assume your audio will exceed 0dB. With loudness war your audio always exceeds 0dB simply because people found that the limiters can be "misused" this way.
A brickwall limiter such as MDynamicsLimiter basically works like a very fast compressor. The idea is that when the input audio gets too high in level, the limiter pushes it down temporarily. For example, a snare drum may often be a cause of high level noise-like burst, so when the limiter receives the initial peak, it pushes down kind-of the whole snare drum hit (simply put). If you'd use a saturator, it would process each of the many overs (samples above 0dB) separately, hence generating more distortion.
The limiter therefore provides the automatic compensation for you increasing the gain too much. If you'd use a saturator instead, you would probably end up with a very distorted results, unless the overall level is small enough, in which case the saturator would only ensure there are no peaks above 0dB and if so, it would distort them "nicely". The limiter would do the same thing but in a different manner - low the gain for you to minimize the distortion.
What this all means:
Basically, if there would be no loudness war and you would want to use as much dynamic range in your songs as possible, you'd just use ensure the overall level isn't exceeding 0dB too often (or not at all) and then use a saturator to ensure everything is as expected.
Since there is a loudness war, you use a limiter to make recordings louder without introducting to much distortion. And a good limiter also contains a saturator placed behind it to smooth things up a little more (and allow attack times above 0ms). The limiter also kind of stands for a compressor - since the limiter decreases dynamic range, you often don't need to use any master compressor.
And btw. a multiband limiter is yet another step - by limiting different parts of the spectrum separately, you avoid more distortion and flatten the spectrum allowing for even higher loudness. Is that good? That depends on the style. And of course, a great (if not the best) multiband limiter: MMultiBandLimiter
.So...
Saturator is basically a distortion with clipping, but that's kind of misleading. The idea is that a saturator generates only a very small amount of higher harmonics as opposed to distortion, which is used to generate lots of them and so the algorithms are usually slightly different.
Digital clipping is known for generating only odd harmonics (when you put a sine 100Hz into it, it generates 300Hz, 500Hz...) - is that bad? Many people say so, I don't think it's a general rule though. But one thing is true - analog components generate also odd harmonics (200Hz, 400Hz...), so they also sound different and many people agree this sounds better. Who knows, I don't think most people would hear a difference, but we audiophiles eventually do
, a little .Anyway saturation is therefore the process before digital clipping, which is designed to provide these "analog" features before the digital clipping takes place.
To check a great saturator, it is MMultiBandSaturator.
Limiters were originally designed to remove peaks with minimum distortion (thus transparency). This is needed if you assume your audio will exceed 0dB. With loudness war your audio always exceeds 0dB simply because people found that the limiters can be "misused" this way.
A brickwall limiter such as MDynamicsLimiter basically works like a very fast compressor. The idea is that when the input audio gets too high in level, the limiter pushes it down temporarily. For example, a snare drum may often be a cause of high level noise-like burst, so when the limiter receives the initial peak, it pushes down kind-of the whole snare drum hit (simply put). If you'd use a saturator, it would process each of the many overs (samples above 0dB) separately, hence generating more distortion.
The limiter therefore provides the automatic compensation for you increasing the gain too much. If you'd use a saturator instead, you would probably end up with a very distorted results, unless the overall level is small enough, in which case the saturator would only ensure there are no peaks above 0dB and if so, it would distort them "nicely". The limiter would do the same thing but in a different manner - low the gain for you to minimize the distortion.
What this all means:
Basically, if there would be no loudness war and you would want to use as much dynamic range in your songs as possible, you'd just use ensure the overall level isn't exceeding 0dB too often (or not at all) and then use a saturator to ensure everything is as expected.
Since there is a loudness war, you use a limiter to make recordings louder without introducting to much distortion. And a good limiter also contains a saturator placed behind it to smooth things up a little more (and allow attack times above 0ms). The limiter also kind of stands for a compressor - since the limiter decreases dynamic range, you often don't need to use any master compressor.
And btw. a multiband limiter is yet another step - by limiting different parts of the spectrum separately, you avoid more distortion and flatten the spectrum allowing for even higher loudness. Is that good? That depends on the style
. And of course, a great (if not the best) multiband limiter: MMultiBandLimiter-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2807 posts since 8 Sep, 2009
Thanks for taking your time to explain the background. 
Hehe, I'm glad that I grabbed the TotalBundle. The weekend was interesting trying and checking the various options as the thread evolved. Plus I learned a lot for improving my mixes while comprehending the hints.
Hehe, I'm glad that I grabbed the TotalBundle. The weekend was interesting trying and checking the various options as the thread evolved. Plus I learned a lot for improving my mixes while comprehending the hints.