Reason sound doesn't sell is not true

[Davias]

That reminds me off the discussion on how people are able to hear that the newer Prodigy albums were made in Reason. I never read something like that about newer Beastie Boys albums though, although they use Reason too afaik.

Maybe only Reason users then ?

My friend told directly that Always remembered, never outgunned was sounding that crappy card-box reason sound (his words ).

If you compare Fat of the Land and Always whatever album. The difference in sounding is huge ! But once again, this was years later so maybe Liam changed his like for this sound or that sound. Or maybe the mix and master engineers gave a different color to this album. Or maybe going ITB gave that crappy sound to Always whatever album. I'm a huge fan of The Prodigy (I started getting into production thanks to them ^^). So I can assert you that Fat of the Land is huge sounding, and Always whatever is crap sounding. Now there's nice and boring tracks on the two albums, so I'm only talking about sound here.

Quote from Liam Howlett himself : " Reason is good for getting shit happening quickly, but it doesnt sound like Logic or Protools, they sound better. "

Ha I don't think the Beasties Boys are an example in best sound around. They always were a little bit muddy, like it was good for old hip-hop, if they were too clean they would have been called electro I guess.

The thing is that Beasties Boys album were certainly processed OTB after leaving the Reason draft stage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Davias]

Interesting. So may it be that the redrum, nn-19, nn-xt are doing something to the sound ? I admit I never tried the Record part of Reason.

In the old days of Reasonstation there was much discussion about the algorithms of Reason which also was carefully tested. The conclusion was that it changed the sound. In response to one of them Propellerheads answered: "As shown in the 15kHz test, the wave exported from Reason isn't a perfect copy of the source material". What the status quo in Reason today is I do not know, but it is a fact that different algorithms (pitch algorithms, interpolation algorithms etc.) may affect the sounds different in any kind of audio application.

Thanks for this information. This confirm my own experience. I always though it was inherent of the audio engine but if it comes from their crappy coding of factory devices, then it is another story. I read the post and they pretend it does nothing bad to the sound but I don't agree with them, impossible to take a kick drum for instance and having it play in Reason with same quality than outside Reason. Last version tested : 6. So maybe they fix it since that. Or maybe my brain and my ears and my computer have problems.

I've already said I have done null tests. So I don't agree with you about the kick drum example, not at all.

I've read you, and I wonder what I did wrong in my test. I'm really no expert in that department (I maybe did 3 null tests in my whole life ). So I wonder what are the right steps.

Finally like I said, it was zooming over the waveform that achieved to convince me. The transient was looking different. And I would never have bottered to do that test at the first time if I wasn't hearing anything. Now this sounds so crazy that I still wonder about it. This is why this thread interest me (even I moved on and I don't plan to buy Reason).

[chk071]

Quote from Liam Howlett himself : " Reason is good for getting shit happening quickly, but it doesnt sound like Logic or Protools, they sound better. "

Hans Zimmer also said once that Cubase sounds better than other hosts. I won't take any position regarding that, i don't know enough about it and null tests. But considering that these are people who have a very high standard on how something has to sound, then i have to wonder. That's all i want to say. And every time Zimmer says he's using Zebra, people are quick to call it a quality attribute, so.

[Aroused by JarJar]

I don't like Reason sound after all. When Reason sound is playing, whoever made it, including my own - I feel like it captures my mind and makes me critically following the sound. It just doesn't work.

Then don't use Reason.

[Flandersh]

Interesting. So may it be that the redrum, nn-19, nn-xt are doing something to the sound ? I admit I never tried the Record part of Reason.

In the old days of Reasonstation there was much discussion about the algorithms of Reason which also was carefully tested. The conclusion was that it changed the sound. In response to one of them Propellerheads answered: "As shown in the 15kHz test, the wave exported from Reason isn't a perfect copy of the source material". What the status quo in Reason today is I do not know, but it is a fact that different algorithms (pitch algorithms, interpolation algorithms etc.) may affect the sounds different in any kind of audio application.

Thanks for this information. This confirm my own experience. I always though it was inherent of the audio engine but if it comes from their crappy coding of factory devices, then it is another story. I read the post and they pretend it does nothing bad to the sound but I don't agree with them, impossible to take a kick drum for instance and having it play in Reason with same quality than outside Reason. Last version tested : 6. So maybe they fix it since that. Or maybe my brain and my ears and my computer have problems.

I've already said I have done null tests. So I don't agree with you about the kick drum example, not at all.

So what you say is that the High Quality Interpolation button on the samplers does not do any thing with the sound at all?

[Davias]

Hard to say if it was youtube or not but it was muddy yes

First I heard "waaaw what nice sounds" and then when everything came into play the drums were buried behind the rest. I guess the guy is a talented mixer for compensate that so well ^^

Yeah, there's definitely a lot going on in some of those parts and I didn't notice much use of ducking for the drums as I'm used to hearing really obviously in dance music these days to let the kick punch through. I don't think Michael Kastrup would mind me posting a better quality version of his demo tune. He used to have them posted here in the forum years ago to help promote his refill project.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... ase_03.mp3

And as a side bonus, I sometimes like to load up this jazzy Reason 1.0 tune as a humble reminder that skill always wins out in the end. Proof that even that primitive program could produce a really good quality mix using only its internal instruments and effects.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... _Found.mp3

I never doubted that skilled people could make gold out of Reason ^^ Like someone said at the beginning of the thread, some guys made golden songs with broken guitars or broken synths. Here in Belgium we have now a successful artist that even made a worldwide hit (my ex-gf from Mexico told me about him, I didn't even know ).

This guy is using Reason. Even I'm not always fond of his music I have to acknowledge the quality and efficiency of his productions. But all his stuff has a kind of a sweet thing, not agressive, muffled sound. This is the reason sound, even after being enhanced and over processed by his expensive studio team, there is something in the sound that makes it unique.

In fact I think Reason can give a touch to any composition. The Reason sound is not bad or great, it is what you can make of it.

As for me, I choosed transparency and walked away from Reason for this very reason :p

[chk071]

Well, if you use the same devices, same effects, and same mastering tools, then you will have a certain sound, that's for sure. Not sure if i would be able to identify this sound, but some people probably will be able to. Also plugins from the same dev will probably sound similar, at least thats my experience. They don't reinvent the wheel every time.

[Davias]

Quote from Liam Howlett himself : " Reason is good for getting shit happening quickly, but it doesnt sound like Logic or Protools, they sound better. "

Hans Zimmer also said once that Cubase sounds better than other hosts. I won't take any position regarding that, i don't know enough about it and null tests. But considering that these are people who have a very high standard on how something has to sound, then i have to wonder. That's all i want to say. And every time Zimmer says he's using Zebra, people are quick to call it a quality attribute, so.

Kinda same feeling here

If they can hear it, maybe it is true ?

I meant, I didn't waited for Howlett to make myself an idea about what I think of Reason's sound. But it kinda relieved me to know that a "master" was thinking same as me, that I was not crazy just imagining thing.

Then I finished to do that "null test" (I will quote it because I'm still not sure what would be a proper A/B test) and then I settled my mind... But I would like to try a new Reason version and hear that the sound finally got better, and if the CPU usage could become acceptable, then when not head back to Reason ? Oh also I think Reason would really benefit from lifetime licenses.

[Davias]

Well, if you use the same devices, same effects, and same mastering tools, then you will have a certain sound, that's for sure. Not sure if i would be able to identify this sound, but some people probably will be able to. Also plugins from the same dev will probably sound similar, at least thats my experience. They don't reinvent the wheel every time.

Agreed with that.

I find that Tone2 has a sound (maybe coming from watermarking, just curious, don't care)
U-he has a sound (really I find ACE, Zebra, Diva, colored). I'm not fond of it but I think it can be sweet.
SugarBytes has a sound, I love their FXs and synths, but they sound thin and muddy to me, exactly the same way reason sounds.

[Aroused by JarJar]

Hard to say if it was youtube or not but it was muddy yes

First I heard "waaaw what nice sounds" and then when everything came into play the drums were buried behind the rest. I guess the guy is a talented mixer for compensate that so well ^^

Yeah, there's definitely a lot going on in some of those parts and I didn't notice much use of ducking for the drums as I'm used to hearing really obviously in dance music these days to let the kick punch through. I don't think Michael Kastrup would mind me posting a better quality version of his demo tune. He used to have them posted here in the forum years ago to help promote his refill project.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... ase_03.mp3

And as a side bonus, I sometimes like to load up this jazzy Reason 1.0 tune as a humble reminder that skill always wins out in the end. Proof that even that primitive program could produce a really good quality mix using only its internal instruments and effects.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... _Found.mp3

I never doubted that skilled people could make gold out of Reason ^^ Like someone said at the beginning of the thread, some guys made golden songs with broken guitars or broken synths. Here in Belgium we have now a successful artist that even made a worldwide hit (my ex-gf from Mexico told me about him, I didn't even know ).

This guy is using Reason. Even I'm not always fond of his music I have to acknowledge the quality and efficiency of his productions. But all his stuff has a kind of a sweet thing, not agressive, muffled sound. This is the reason sound, even after being enhanced and over processed by his expensive studio team, there is something in the sound that makes it unique.

In fact I think Reason can give a touch to any composition. The Reason sound is not bad or great, it is what you can make of it.

As for me, I choosed transparency and walked away from Reason for this very reason :p

Those examples sound "canned", flimsy and veiled. Not that it matters to the people who like the music.

[Tronam]

Quote from Liam Howlett himself : " Reason is good for getting shit happening quickly, but it doesnt sound like Logic or Protools, they sound better. "

Hans Zimmer also said once that Cubase sounds better than other hosts. I won't take any position regarding that, i don't know enough about it and null tests. But considering that these are people who have a very high standard on how something has to sound, then i have to wonder. That's all i want to say. And every time Zimmer says he's using Zebra, people are quick to call it a quality attribute, so.

He's certainly not the only well known producer/composer/sound designer to extol the virtues of one DAW's audio engine over another. Eric Persing himself, a devout Logic user, chimed in on one of these threads and was really direct and vocal about how all the various hosts had a distinctive sound. Of all the people's word to trust, Eric would have to be one of the most credible. The problem with these claims though is that these folks are still human and without a consistent method of testing all these programs, it's very hard to know how much of those opinions are psychologically influenced or directly tied to their different built-in effects and instrument plugins, mixer panning law behavior or, I kid you not, the color of the user interface.

[chk071]

Fair enough. I mean, when i hear Armin van Buuren saying in an interview that he has speakers especially built for his studioroom, then i have to wonder if he really is able to sense the difference to normal high quality speakers placed optimally... maybe at some point it is really rather a psychological thing to some degree.

[Tronam]

Those examples sound "canned", flimsy and veiled. Not that it matters to the people who like the music.

Well, there's no post production or mastering on these tracks. They're straight out of the old version of Reason, but to be honest, I find most 100% synthesized music straight out of software to sound pretty canned. The lack of anything truly organic usually produces a flimsiness that's really difficult to get rid of. I find this especially holds true with Ableton Live and since I don't buy into the idea that audio summing engines affect the sound, I'm sure that comes down to the sound of its sample warping and plugin effects. They're so distinctive sounding that Ableton tracks quite often stick out like a sore thumb to me. This doesn't hinder my appreciation of the music though.

[EvilDragon]

maybe at some point it is really rather a psychological thing to some degree.

EVERYTHING related to our brain is psychological at some point.

[Tronam]

This thread brings back a lot of memories. I haven't been on KVR in maybe 3 or so years now, but was a regular throughout most of the 2000s and I find it hilarious to be in another thread topic debating Reason's audio engine. It is truly one of the all time classic, bread'n'butter discussion topics of KVR since the earliest days. I half expect to see Donkey Tugger show up.